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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    That you for that. I now realize that I need an INFJ in order to help me to sort out my so called, "moral values". If any INFJ on this site wants to help me with this please feel free to PM me. Also, I don't seem to relate to what you say about Fi at all. My moral values are not set in stone at all. I must be ENTP
    Quote Originally Posted by momental View Post
    @The Great One

    I think something is wrong. Whether that thing actually exists is the problem. I don't think you are conflicting with your morals, I think you are conflicting with how you think you should handle these morals. Handle them like you would without any influence from thought. Don't think about how you would fix them, just fix them and then determine from that how you fixed them.

    An issue like this should be solved by a means other than trying to figure out your type.
    I agree with @momental. As a core 6 and Extraverted Perceiver, I can attest that one of our biggest struggles is to rely on our selves to make our own decisions about what is good for us and right for us. NJs are wonderful people, but they can also be very influential, especially NFJs, and unless you are considering going to a professional counselor, I would discourage the idea of enlisting a stranger to help you figure out something internal - because they are likely to sway you to their own view of things, even if they don't mean to. Core 6s have trouble trusting their thoughts - surprising to hear, for an N-dom! But the more we look outside ourselves for answers, the further away from the real answers we will become. The more we look inside, and inside alone, the closer we will get - even if we feel unstable, unsure, and afraid. As ENP 6s, we have to learn to trust our internal value systems to make good choices and stop looking to external theories to "solve ourselves". Funny, isn't it? What I have learned from the Enneagram is that I need to not make the Enneagram the answer. :]

    I think you are already on the right path, @The Great One, and simply experiencing cognitive dissonance. Your superego (essentially your learned conscience with heavy parental influence) is telling you that you're going to be punished for certain actions while your Ti tells you that you want to take things logically, case by case. And then to top it all off, Fe is probably tapping you on the shoulder to remind you that karma is more than just a religious belief - it's an actual phenomenon (ie, if you're bad to someone else, it creates negativity that may well eventually be carried back to you). You are in the middle of a hard struggle, and you know that. Be strong and stay true to yourself! You know what makes sense to you - trust your Ti. It's your "good parent" function, and it's there to help you. If you ever feel like you're getting too logic-heavy, you can engage Fe via pleasant interpersonal reactions - it's your "relief" function, and should help ease your stress - which should help balance you out. Personally, I find meditation and time alone in nature helpful for clearing my head of outside opinions and focusing on my independent, internal, personal thoughts.

    FWIW, I definitely believe you are ENTP. Your mind-structure is very different than mine and other ENFPs I have discussed with. :]

  2. #42
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I agree with @momental. As a core 6 and Extraverted Perceiver, I can attest that one of our biggest struggles is to rely on our selves to make our own decisions about what is good for us and right for us. NJs are wonderful people, but they can also be very influential, especially NFJs, and unless you are considering going to a professional counselor, I would discourage the idea of enlisting a stranger to help you figure out something internal - because they are likely to sway you to their own view of things, even if they don't mean to. Core 6s have trouble trusting their thoughts - surprising to hear, for an N-dom! But the more we look outside ourselves for answers, the further away from the real answers we will become. The more we look inside, and inside alone, the closer we will get - even if we feel unstable, unsure, and afraid. As ENP 6s, we have to learn to trust our internal value systems to make good choices and stop looking to external theories to "solve ourselves". Funny, isn't it? What I have learned from the Enneagram is that I need to not make the Enneagram the answer. :]

    I think you are already on the right path, @The Great One, and simply experiencing cognitive dissonance. Your superego (essentially your learned conscience with heavy parental influence) is telling you that you're going to be punished for certain actions while your Ti tells you that you want to take things logically, case by case. And then to top it all off, Fe is probably tapping you on the shoulder to remind you that karma is more than just a religious belief - it's an actual phenomenon (ie, if you're bad to someone else, it creates negativity that may well eventually be carried back to you). You are in the middle of a hard struggle, and you know that. Be strong and stay true to yourself! You know what makes sense to you - trust your Ti. It's your "good parent" function, and it's there to help you. If you ever feel like you're getting too logic-heavy, you can engage Fe via pleasant interpersonal reactions - it's your "relief" function, and should help ease your stress - which should help balance you out. Personally, I find meditation and time alone in nature helpful for clearing my head of outside opinions and focusing on my independent, internal, personal thoughts.

    FWIW, I definitely believe you are ENTP. Your mind-structure is very different than mine and other ENFPs I have discussed with. :]
    Thank you for your analysis. Meditation does help me, but I don't really think that it would help me to sort out my moral dilemmas. I think I need to get a book on ethics and analyze and pick apart what is right and wrong. Making my own moral values is nearly impossible for me. I have to get them from outside forces, and obviously I can't go without morals altogether either because then I'd be a sociopath. This is quite the pickle that I am in.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Thank you for your analysis. Meditation does help me, but I don't really think that it would help me to sort out my moral dilemmas. I think I need to get a book on ethics and analyze and pick apart what is right and wrong. Making my own moral values is nearly impossible for me. I have to get them from outside forces, and obviously I can't go without morals altogether either because then I'd be a sociopath. This is quite the pickle that I am in.
    Why is that?

    Maybe I am thinking too much like an ENFP, and not understanding your viewpoint, but to me morals seem to mostly derive naturally from beliefs about the universe. Once you know where you stand in terms of what you believe about life, you can make some general rules about how to act in certain situations.

    For example, in terms of lies, my thought process is kind of like this:
    I believe that everyone has a right to make decisions based on reality as they best understand it, without purposeful obfuscation from outside sources. Therefore lying is, in general, "wrong" to me because it takes away others' ability to make decisions based on the truth. When I lie, I deprive others of reality and obscure their perception for my own profit, which is not fair to them. Most of the time, if I have a reason to want to lie, I can avoid doing so by replacing the lie with an obscure or ambiguous statement, redirecting the person who is asking to someone else, or keeping my mouth shut entirely. However, I also believe that all life deserves to be respected and cared for, and sometimes in extreme cases, where I am quite certain that telling the truth will cause irreversible and undeserved pain, I feel like I can use my better judgment to suspend my rule.

    Given, reading philosophy is helpful to give you certain scenarios to think about. Kant with his categorical imperative would say, no lying ever, so even in the scenario of having seen a child run by, and having a man with a gun tell you that he intends to shoot that child and asking which way the child went (and he will shoot you if you do not say), you are still supposed to tell him truthfully where the child went. Personally, I do understand Kant's reasoning, but I think it's unrealistic when you can make a good guess that the person is going to use that information for harm.

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    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Why is that?

    Maybe I am thinking too much like an ENFP, and not understanding your viewpoint, but to me morals seem to mostly derive naturally from beliefs about the universe. Once you know where you stand in terms of what you believe about life, you can make some general rules about how to act in certain situations.

    For example, in terms of lies, my thought process is kind of like this:
    I believe that everyone has a right to make decisions based on reality as they best understand it, without purposeful obfuscation from outside sources. Therefore lying is, in general, "wrong" to me because it takes away others' ability to make decisions based on the truth. When I lie, I deprive others of reality and obscure their perception for my own profit, which is not fair to them. Most of the time, if I have a reason to want to lie, I can avoid doing so by replacing the lie with an obscure or ambiguous statement, redirecting the person who is asking to someone else, or keeping my mouth shut entirely. However, I also believe that all life deserves to be respected and cared for, and sometimes in extreme cases, where I am quite certain that telling the truth will cause irreversible and undeserved pain, I feel like I can use my better judgment to suspend my rule.

    Given, reading philosophy is helpful to give you certain scenarios to think about. Kant with his categorical imperative would say, no lying ever, so even in the scenario of having seen a child run by, and having a man with a gun tell you that he intends to shoot that child and asking which way the child went (and he will shoot you if you do not say), you are still supposed to tell him truthfully where the child went. Personally, I do understand Kant's reasoning, but I think it's unrealistic when you can make a good guess that the person is going to use that information for harm.
    I don't know why. I mean, it's just very very difficult for me to make my own moral values. I would have almost no idea on how to go about it. BTW, my thoughts on lying....

    Lying is not really that bad unless it hurts someone. I believe that many times evil must be done in order to accomplish good things. For example about 99% of politicians lie their ass off when they are campaigning. This wouldn't really bother me to lie like this because I would see that it would need to be done in order to secure my vote. I mean, my main mission as a politician would be to make the world a better place, but unfortunately that may involve telling the people want they want to hear. Again sometimes bad things have to be done in order to accomplish good things.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Given, reading philosophy is helpful to give you certain scenarios to think about. Kant with his categorical imperative would say, no lying ever, so even in the scenario of having seen a child run by, and having a man with a gun tell you that he intends to shoot that child and asking which way the child went (and he will shoot you if you do not say), you are still supposed to tell him truthfully where the child went. Personally, I do understand Kant's reasoning, but I think it's unrealistic when you can make a good guess that the person is going to use that information for harm.
    some make the illogical assumption of situational attributes playing no role in morality, as if everything is the same.

    i have quite opposite view of that, i can say i have set in stone moral to be good, while the definition of right actions are entirely situational.

    for example, i talked myself out of paying for a product i broke, as they anyways deserved no pay for selling in such over prices. (not to mention, both low quality and high price? ugh, capitalism. low enough to break apart from the way its supposed to be used.) that, was a good action.


    and the politician lying thing, is good only as long as not only your intentions as politicians are good but your abilities to actually deliver something good in your career as a politician. otherwise, your good as nothing.
    if every politician is supposed to be a liar, how are we ever supposed to have good, honest politicians? democracy doesnt work.. this is more like a competition of american idol.

    and situational attributes, its ok to kill a person if its known the person would ruin lives of others if no action is taken, as proper concentration camps are out of question for some unknown reason.. thus its individuals responsibility to murder idiots. its a question of allowing irrational morals let an abuser survive, ruining lives of innocents or doing the right thing, removing dangerous individuals from society before they commit their actions. if you have a violentic individual, its too late to punish after its done. have to be preemptive.

    morality seems absent in our world.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I don't know why. I mean, it's just very very difficult for me to make my own moral values. I would have almost no idea on how to go about it. BTW, my thoughts on lying....

    Lying is not really that bad unless it hurts someone. I believe that many times evil must be done in order to accomplish good things. For example about 99% of politicians lie their ass off when they are campaigning. This wouldn't really bother me to lie like this because I would see that it would need to be done in order to secure my vote. I mean, my main mission as a politician would be to make the world a better place, but unfortunately that may involve telling the people want they want to hear. Again sometimes bad things have to be done in order to accomplish good things.
    Sounds like you are well on your way to working out your moral reasoning to me.

    Also, to me, "moral values" are quite a broad thing. It's like what @Vilku said - a moral "to be good", but how is that interpreted? Sometimes I think it is much harder to define the how than the what. Is it harder for you to determine how you want to be, or how you should act?

    Honestly, I think part of it is trial-and-error. If you behave one way in a situation, then you regret it, you change your way of approaching things and try again. In high school, I lied all the time, because I thought it was a harmless way out. Which, in certain situations, it still seems to be, but I caught myself up in a web of lies, so to speak, and really messed myself up, and hurt several people close to me. So after that I rethought things and personally avoid lying, in part because it makes my life easier. I don't have to remember the lies!

  7. #47
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Sounds like you are well on your way to working out your moral reasoning to me.

    Also, to me, "moral values" are quite a broad thing. It's like what @Vilku said - a moral "to be good", but how is that interpreted? Sometimes I think it is much harder to define the how than the what. Is it harder for you to determine how you want to be, or how you should act?

    Honestly, I think part of it is trial-and-error. If you behave one way in a situation, then you regret it, you change your way of approaching things and try again. In high school, I lied all the time, because I thought it was a harmless way out. Which, in certain situations, it still seems to be, but I caught myself up in a web of lies, so to speak, and really messed myself up, and hurt several people close to me. So after that I rethought things and personally avoid lying, in part because it makes my life easier. I don't have to remember the lies!
    "Is it harder for you to determine how you want to be, or how you should act?"

    neither, determine the optimal method of perception, where your ability to perceive is not static, but rather one where you always have motivation to summon more will to see everything, and keep maintaining it neutral of bias with said motivation.

    those two questions are answered by this simple method of perceptive self development. also assess same method for self understanding, and enjoy the challenge of it. for one can never truly perceive perfectly. as such, we must enjoy the striving of perfection, understanding it itself is perfection if we can accept the never ending quality of our goal. combining this neutral perception with your knowledge is very helpful, as they are both sides of the same coin.

    in shorter words, neutral motivation for self understanding (which makes understanding everything clearer) to rid yourself of every egoistic motivations you can find, to be whole. it might seem selfish, but knowing such would destroy the perception of selfishness and selflessness as they become one in the end.
    ive achieved it a few times, only maintaining such state is hard. but every time i reach there, more i will be for the rest of my life and easier reaching such becomes.

    it also correlates to enneagram in an interesting way: body, mind and feeling triad. such state i described, is when you arent led by one ennea (sure you might have core), but rather, one of each triad is equally motivating you, and thus giving you the ability to balance each with the help of each motivational factors for the balance which gives you perfect progress.

    i realized if i dont focus on all three, the two rest i do focus on arent really making any progress, rather creating me an illusion of progress. like when i were neglecting my body triad, focusing on 4w3 and 7?, i thought i made amazing progress by creating new voice every week for myself, gaining outstanding voice acting skills.. but really, i were in a loop of deluding myself into believing in progress, when in fact i was only running circles with no other permanent gain than the skill. (and that loop in the end made me forgot pretty much everything as only voice acting/having fun by doing so mattered to me, not to mention how fast time passed.)

    they old timer self developers always told of focusing on those three, and i prejudiced their findings as possibly faulty due the absence of scientific methods.
    and as such, ignored them. only to stumble upon it accidentally myself, and find out they were right. and the "body" doesnt actually mean body, rather the act of controlling it with and your brains.

    more on the first question: i suppose the problem for ENP's is overcomplicating everything and forgetting Si holds the final solution. complicating everything for the sake of gaining more is good, but in the end the real conclusion can be made from searching the roots of question in need of an answer.

    we tend to inteprate the original question for what we think it is, while in fact one may ask what religion is, and to find the real answer you must look deep inside your mind. ignoring the words, only looking at the core of the concept, does it even exist or is this just a label for communicational purposes? for example, that i would have answered with: the act of sharing world view and/or knowledge for achieving something.

    there are no shoulds, there are course of actions, and one option is always better than the rest. whether we see this option, understand it, or even come up with it in the first place.

    the way i view world: it would unfold the exact same path without my intervention, and people would arrive into the exact same emotional/mental states were i not to intervene. therefore, from my perspective i have as much control over it as well as i understand my own abilities to interact with this world.

    that being said, some things happen, while i can control most of it as long as i understand how to, but there are always some things which would have been beyond even if i were to have perfect undrstanding.

    like when i go outside, i acknowledge some people have been set to the path of aggression at specific times and i play by chances on not coming across them, as well as i can fight against the unknowns which i can control by analyzing chances, while they are anyways set in stone even if the chance is the most rare.

    OMM... i dont sound 7w6 six at all? xD... taking mental capabilities for self preservation. its akin to a game of chess, only you have no idea of the opponents pieces nor their locations, while you can create accurate estimations by figuring your own pieces first. i think that parable about sums it up. parables <3.. xD... cant help but love them, always make my long explanations ten times simpler, as well as translate my sarcasm into a language others understand in times of need.

    and while each option you can act with, the best ones, are always hardest to find.. they are there, just depends on your ability to understand yourself what those options are.

    "Honestly, I think part of it is trial-and-error. If you behave one way in a situation, then you regret it, you change your way of approaching things and try again."
    when i look into mistakes i made, i trace my past delf understanding to see if the mistake was even preventable with my abilities in the first place. if it was, then good, ive learned how to prevent similar things in the future. if not, then no mistake was made, it was inevitable. although, often if not always all mistakes are preventable with adequate self understanding.

    i have over 250+ tabs open, i calculated an estimation. with self understanding, no matter how interesting EVER. ONE. of them. is MY PRECIOUSS!! >=(... well, i learned to predict the likelihood of myself into even stumbling onto that "interesting" tab i opened a year or minutes ago, to actually know i wouldnt stumble upon some of them no matter how precious they are to me. so as to close them.

    self understanding is the key to everything for ENP's.

    only by understanding myself i can predict myself so as to control the said self.
    also for enfp's important to remember, look at hunting for mistakes as a way to bettering yourself, not to condemn yourself.

    the betetr you get at it, the broader and more neutral your scope becomes, and as such meaning higher amount of chances of discovering how to better yourself.


    yes, contradicting truth is self destructive. there are always better paths available. such as distracting the others from what you dont want them to see, or eluding it by over powering them verbally.

    but, its always easiest not to create something you have to elude by eluding the necessity for deceithful means of communication.
    i cope against that best by being 100% open and truthful, its a lesson to learn how everything you are can be expressed in a positive light as long as you poses the linguistic capabilities. after all, enfp's are the creators of languages. what we created, we can master, and what we master, is our slaves.

    one could learn rhetorics in academic ways, but for Ne users i recommend self learning. not only to be unique, cause then you learn the core method of how to manipulate language, but as well making you unique and verbally more expressive as well as clear. you dont need fancy rules to study a language, all you need is a subject to experiment upon.

    one funny observation ive made: i could say any detail i view as positive in ways which'd make the other think of it in a negative light, but then i could also express it in positive light as long as prejudices arent present, and then, its easy to accuse others of such if they really do so. as there is no avoiding the truth.
    interestingly, i turned a homophobic person into.. actually defending them in ou conversations without ever making myself into one side or another, although i expressed myself on neutral leaning giving the necessary knowledge he needed to make a positive conclusion even although the knowledge was given in said neutral/negative tone so as to not distance myself from the prejudiced negative conclusion which was always demonstrated.

    its interesting, how much good can be done with language alone without ever even letting the other know how you made them reach their conclusions in the first place.

    and i actually do use lies too, but only as one time use tools with people i will never know, and actually only just the one time in that said shopping event i mentioned. plus for me to breach into such a conclusion of using it, there must be a deep reason for me to do so as i had in that situation.

    if you use lies, make yourself believe them. that way, they become the reality, as well you must use only ones of situations you would anyways forget so no remembering needed, and no permanent impact of any sort affect you which to worry after.

    if you can convince yourself, you will act the way you naturally would so its more of an erased + replaced memory than a lie. and how on earth can anyone detect a lie if you yourself are convinced of its truth?
    i explode into laughing if i attempt to fake without convincing myself first, and thats not very convincing eh? xD..

    the only negative aspect on lies is pretty much, the violation of trust where such is formed. if a costumer trusts salesman, sells an overpriced object, customer finds out later, feels betrayed, never purchases from said market line again. thats how i act at least. (a person who orders one pound worthy products from china.. yeah, its worth a one months wait now that i finalyl got it today, i can play with my synthesizer which i did play with just fef hours ago. or.. five hours, time runs fast..)

    each person have different view on what trust is, and where they place it, is always on their terms. better not violate without rational explanation.
    on SJ's they can have frustrating expectations of you doing everything their way, for example if i plan to plan, its set in stone and means everything is in control, but they feel betrayed cause such a plan wouldnt work for them, logical fallacy of expecting others to be themselves. fortunately, we poses the tools for explaining their mistakes on their face. that too is something you could either do in way which they perceive as a personal attack, or gently with controlled words. however, if their aggression on you comes as a surprise, explanations hard to form under the emotional pressure. theres one mistake i learned from, SJ's = unpredictable, expect unpredictable explosions and form plans on how to evade those. if unpredictable happens, unpredicted forces emotional forces imbound may affect you and defensive stance doesnt play well for sj's, as they hate our elusive tactics, aggrevating them further. if they make conclusion, only way to affect it is by changing their perception of what gave the conclusion. by pointing out errors.

    the difference of the NP's and SJ's planning is quite small: knowledge of possibilities for course of actions to be sustained is enough to convince adequate plans will come in as we go for NP's, for SJ's, they require not only the knowledge of the possibilities being there but also, each step in high detail how to reach them.

    should i consider on learning how to stop my thought stream? gah, i can _never_ see my posts as complete. always something is missing, which without it would be incomplete.. -.- .. the perfectionists burden, doing more than what is necessary.
    incomplete as in the other person not posessing every piece of knowledge required for the said conclusions im presenting, to be made.

    and, ive only got so used when not explaining everything, people make irrational opposition only to be crushed if i dont, in the end, anyways have to explain every single thing which by explaining in the first place would have saved some time.

    (hm, thats an effective way to humiliate Ti's btw. they come with believing their conclusion is adequate, but in the fact.. made on very limited knowledge of the situation, giving the illusion of their knowledge being superior. oh, and they probably hate us for doing it. i really find it hard making a thought sharing bond with sensor Ti's, i may give them something to think about which they find interesting, only to receive a beep of an irrational conclusion i must fix by flooding them with adequate information for them to see why it is how it is. you know the people who stick to ridiculous things if you dont explain in detail how easy it is to switch for a better method? its not enough if something else is multitude easier and better in every way.)

    also how you interpret morality is simple: form a core moral which cna be applied to everything by studying how you can use it with the aid of neutral understanding, knowledge holes replaced with chance calculations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Okay, so I'm trying to figure myself out lately. Suddenly everything makes no sense to me, and I'm really trying to make sense of it all. My moral values are very tricky and they change with the wind. I seem to be an ENTP personality type, but I am much more moral than most ENTP types. However, when I break a moral value I don't feel a sense of conviction, but more of a sense of fear. [...]
    Just brainstorming here, based on functional analysis and what I’m reading in your OP. I’m not an ENTP myself.

    Here is the picture I’m seeing. Ne is your dominant function. Your parents brought you up in a strict religious environment, and you used Ne to get around the strictness of the rules. You’re a nimble thinker, and you would wrestle constantly with their religious strictures versus your need to get on with your own life.

    No problem.

    Now you’re an adult, and you feel that all this mental nimbleness has left you without an ethical core. You get hung up on minor ethical issues in your environment and wrestle with them much the same way that you wrestled with religious issues as a child. You’re dissatisfied with mere nimbleness (Ne) as a way of evading the big issues; you want some real long-term guidance.

    No problem.

    The problem comes with how you generate this kind of guidance from inside. Fi is traditionally the (function-related) source of ethics. But Fi isn’t even on the functional horizon for ENTPs. I’m not saying that it’s totally alien to them; just that it’s usually not something they concern themselves with as a core issue (it’s not something they would tackle as a cause of, or as a solution to, problems). And Fe isn’t much more on the horizon either. So I don’t think that the problem is strictly an issue of ethics.

    Meanwhile, ENTPs have Si as their inferior. Si is also a place where you can get a lot of moral guidance in life. But since it’s your inferior function, you’re going to hate it. It’s going to reek of the simplistic moral strictures that your parents bludgeoned you with as a child.

    Nonetheless, if you can embrace your Si, it is a very useful function. Si rules allow you to just settle some issues once and for all, instead of beating your head against them day after day.

    For example, here’s an Ne conundrum: “I am in sales and I lie to people all day long to sell products.” Si solution: “But I believe in the quality of my product overall, so ultimately I’m doing people a favor by steering people away from inferior products sold by others and getting my product into their hands. Even if it involves stretching the truth.”

    This may be a simplistic rationalization. But the point is that once you embrace it as an Si truth, you never have to question that issue again. You’re free to move on to bigger and better things.

    To put it another way: Si gives you a bedrock of simple truths and rules that you can pull up and trust quickly, so that you can resolve some issues once and for all and not have to re-work them and re-question them all the time. And that’s what you’re missing in life. Without some bedrock rules with which to springboard past life’s nagging little conundrums, you remain mired in self-doubt and inability to resolve even simple questions.

    Here’s a quote about ENTPs from PersonalityPage.com that describes this particular phenomenon in detail:

    ...Another significant problem arises where the ENTP has grown within or is locked by circumstances to an environment which limits their freedom or their ability to utilize their specific abilities. This forces the ENTP to narrow down their intuitive process to the point where it retains at least some freedom to operate within their life. Under such conditions however, the intuition is free only to range over a small and limited field of vision, a field which usually consists only of the very things the ENTP is normally unconcerned about: the small details of life and its familiar objects. Without the ability to take stock and apply careful thought to the ways they might expand their horizons, the ENTP in such situations can become morose, niggardly and obsessed with the most minor or intangible details - to the point where such minutiae fill their life and each day becomes a frustrating process of eliminating again and again the little problems which ever seem to stand in the way of the "big picture" - a picture which, as those around them know only too well, will never be realized.
    Anyway, this post is going overlong. Let me wrap this up and then point you to PersonalityPage.com for more assistance.

    Basically, to solve this problem, you need to develop your Ti more and use it to develop some Si bedrock for your life. That is, your problem is that your Ne gives you nimbleness with which to address lots of issues, but the answers that you develop don’t stick with you for very long and form bedrock. Ti is your second most-accessible function, and you probably consider yourself pretty good at it. But you’re not using it to its fullest extent. To solve your problem, you need to Ti your answers to the point that you have real faith in them and allow them to become Si bedrock for your life.

    Basically, right now you’re only using Ti to support Ne. That is, you use your analytical function to help you generate rationalizations to allow you to be nimble. But your Ti can be much more useful than that. Ti can help you to generate analyses that you can trust for a lifetime, analyses that can form a bedrock and allow you to quit second-guessing yourself on the small issues of life.

    If this approach seems like it might work for you, then you can read more about it at:http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTP_per.html

  9. #49
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Just brainstorming here, based on functional analysis and what I’m reading in your OP. I’m not an ENTP myself.

    Here is the picture I’m seeing. Ne is your dominant function. Your parents brought you up in a strict religious environment, and you used Ne to get around the strictness of the rules. You’re a nimble thinker, and you would wrestle constantly with their religious strictures versus your need to get on with your own life.

    No problem.

    Now you’re an adult, and you feel that all this mental nimbleness has left you without an ethical core. You get hung up on minor ethical issues in your environment and wrestle with them much the same way that you wrestled with religious issues as a child. You’re dissatisfied with mere nimbleness (Ne) as a way of evading the big issues; you want some real long-term guidance.

    No problem.

    The problem comes with how you generate this kind of guidance from inside. Fi is traditionally the (function-related) source of ethics. But Fi isn’t even on the functional horizon for ENTPs. I’m not saying that it’s totally alien to them; just that it’s usually not something they concern themselves with as a core issue (it’s not something they would tackle as a cause of, or as a solution to, problems). And Fe isn’t much more on the horizon either. So I don’t think that the problem is strictly an issue of ethics.

    Meanwhile, ENTPs have Si as their inferior. Si is also a place where you can get a lot of moral guidance in life. But since it’s your inferior function, you’re going to hate it. It’s going to reek of the simplistic moral strictures that your parents bludgeoned you with as a child.

    Nonetheless, if you can embrace your Si, it is a very useful function. Si rules allow you to just settle some issues once and for all, instead of beating your head against them day after day.

    For example, here’s an Ne conundrum: “I am in sales and I lie to people all day long to sell products.” Si solution: “But I believe in the quality of my product overall, so ultimately I’m doing people a favor by steering people away from inferior products sold by others and getting my product into their hands. Even if it involves stretching the truth.”

    This may be a simplistic rationalization. But the point is that once you embrace it as an Si truth, you never have to question that issue again. You’re free to move on to bigger and better things.

    To put it another way: Si gives you a bedrock of simple truths and rules that you can pull up and trust quickly, so that you can resolve some issues once and for all and not have to re-work them and re-question them all the time. And that’s what you’re missing in life. Without some bedrock rules with which to springboard past life’s nagging little conundrums, you remain mired in self-doubt and inability to resolve even simple questions.

    Here’s a quote about ENTPs from PersonalityPage.com that describes this particular phenomenon in detail:



    Anyway, this post is going overlong. Let me wrap this up and then point you to PersonalityPage.com for more assistance.

    Basically, to solve this problem, you need to develop your Ti more and use it to develop some Si bedrock for your life. That is, your problem is that your Ne gives you nimbleness with which to address lots of issues, but the answers that you develop don’t stick with you for very long and form bedrock. Ti is your second most-accessible function, and you probably consider yourself pretty good at it. But you’re not using it to its fullest extent. To solve your problem, you need to Ti your answers to the point that you have real faith in them and allow them to become Si bedrock for your life.

    Basically, right now you’re only using Ti to support Ne. That is, you use your analytical function to help you generate rationalizations to allow you to be nimble. But your Ti can be much more useful than that. Ti can help you to generate analyses that you can trust for a lifetime, analyses that can form a bedrock and allow you to quit second-guessing yourself on the small issues of life.

    If this approach seems like it might work for you, then you can read more about it at:http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ENTP_per.html
    I'd love to do that, but there's often speculation that I may be ENFP as well. I'm not even 100% sure that I'm a Ti user. I just can't stop analyzing and come to a conclusion. MY MIND JUST WON'T STOP!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I'd love to do that, but there's often speculation that I may be ENFP as well. I'm not even 100% sure that I'm a Ti user. I just can't stop analyzing and come to a conclusion. MY MIND JUST WON'T STOP!
    Actually, for purposes of my analysis, it wouldn’t matter whether you’re an ENTP or ENFP. Both have Ne as their Dominant and Si as their inferior. So they are both going to have problems finding closure on issues. That is, Ne keeps things open-ended for both ENTPs and ENFPs and results in problems with “MY MIND JUST WON'T STOP!”

    So both need to learn to use their Auxiliary judging function (Ti or Fi) to analyze things to the point of closure and then embrace those closed issues as Si bedrock to be accessed for quick rules and resolutions.

    The only difference between ENTPs and ENFPs, then, would be in how they find closure on issues: Analysis (Ti) or Ethical decisions (Fi). [Edit:] There's not actually much difference between the two. Ti and Fi both work they same way; they just use different filters.

    Anyway, go to PersonalityPage.com for more on this approach. The "Personal Growth" page for ENFPs tells how to develop Fi, and the same page for ENTPs talks about improving Ti.

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