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  1. #11
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eljeffeboss View Post
    Then maybe those belief systems are the problem. Have you ever thought about whether you agree with them?
    I'm kind of going through and sorting through what I believe in and what I don't right now. It's a difficult process.

  2. #12
    Junior Member Eljeffeboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I'm kind of going through and sorting through what I believe in and what I don't right now. It's a difficult process.
    Yeah I know what that's like. But I think it's better to be honest with yourself and approach the world objectively than to ignore facts and sort of live a lie if you know what I mean. If you intuitively disagree with an idea than that's a good red flag that it might not be right. But it'll definitely help to get your beliefs in order before you start trying to tackle ethics.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.
    My morals were beaten into me with a cowboy belt, yeehaw! So no, there's no dilemma here. I know exactly who I am, and I'm proud.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I want to do away with moral values and go with logic on several situations but my belief systems that were ingrained in me since I was a child keep me from doing so.
    If it helps you feel better, I pay attention to the morals and the emotions of others quite a bit, I care very much about how I affect others and what others think of me.

    Logic doesn't really conflict with that.

  5. #15
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I think you're confusing personal ethics (i.e. kantian categorical imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law") and normative religious morals.

    They are not the same. The firsts are deduced when you interact with people, the seconds are forced onto you by others, and you are supposed to obey them without question.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #16
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    I've been going through something similar, and I've come to terms with it.

    I'm definitely more naturally an ENTP, but the reason I second-guessed this is because of past tendencies towards pleasing others. And the fact that I actually feel things.

    I reason that an ENTP is just so naturally good at adapting. Regardless of the way our mental processes are inclined, we are shaped by our environments. It's conditioning.

    Because, through my external environment and people, I was given the impression that there wasn't a rational or logical bone in my body, I reasoned that I should rely more on the other thing in order to succeed in my environment.

    Only problem was, of course, that as good as we are at adapting, we may not feel very at home in how we decide we need to survive.

    I've decided this almost for sure now. I know that I have depth and feelings, because in my environment I was forced to express them, and told how to understand them, although never really able to understand them on more than a superficial level.

    We're not all variants of the Joker from Batman.

    If you look at ENTP comedians, such as Bill Maher or George Carlin, there is no lack of feeling, or passion. There's no 'lack of morals', or 'ethics'. They are very strongly attuned to injustice, and the way the world should be around them. They try to speak out and get people to understand this through their work.

    It's just impossible to understand feelings from an objective standpoint. And I think that's why we second guess ourselves.

  7. #17

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    I don't know why you'd got it in your head that having morals and a code of ethics is illogical.

    Morals and ethics are very important for the functioning of our society. It's when you let strong beliefs cloud your better judgment or shield you from the truth that things become a problem.

    And it honestly doesn't sound like you've got a problem. It sounds like you're trying to root out those blinding beliefs and replace them with impartiality. So don't beat yourself up about it...we've all got them. Also don't think that it makes you weak or illogical: just human, yo.

  8. #18
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegorystory View Post
    I don't know why you'd got it in your head that having morals and a code of ethics is illogical.

    Morals and ethics are very important for the functioning of our society. It's when you let strong beliefs cloud your better judgment or shield you from the truth that things become a problem.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eljeffeboss View Post
    Yeah I know what that's like. But I think it's better to be honest with yourself and approach the world objectively than to ignore facts and sort of live a lie if you know what I mean. If you intuitively disagree with an idea than that's a good red flag that it might not be right. But it'll definitely help to get your beliefs in order before you start trying to tackle ethics.
    I think it's not necessarily that I don't want to be moral, it's that I don't want to fear being "punished" by an external force for things that society would consider unethical. I think it's a internal vs. external locus of control that I'm battling inside. I want to be in control of myself at all times, not someone or something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    My morals were beaten into me with a cowboy belt, yeehaw! So no, there's no dilemma here. I know exactly who I am, and I'm proud.
    And you accepted them without question? Also, did you ever feel like you will be "punished" by external forces such as God or Karma for your wrongdoings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctorjuice View Post
    If it helps you feel better, I pay attention to the morals and the emotions of others quite a bit, I care very much about how I affect others and what others think of me.


    Logic doesn't really conflict with that.
    Good, I'm glad I'm not a total freak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleeting View Post
    I've been going through something similar, and I've come to terms with it.

    I'm definitely more naturally an ENTP, but the reason I second-guessed this is because of past tendencies towards pleasing others. And the fact that I actually feel things.

    I reason that an ENTP is just so naturally good at adapting. Regardless of the way our mental processes are inclined, we are shaped by our environments. It's conditioning.

    Because, through my external environment and people, I was given the impression that there wasn't a rational or logical bone in my body, I reasoned that I should rely more on the other thing in order to succeed in my environment.

    Only problem was, of course, that as good as we are at adapting, we may not feel very at home in how we decide we need to survive.

    I've decided this almost for sure now. I know that I have depth and feelings, because in my environment I was forced to express them, and told how to understand them, although never really able to understand them on more than a superficial level.

    We're not all variants of the Joker from Batman.

    If you look at ENTP comedians, such as Bill Maher or George Carlin, there is no lack of feeling, or passion. There's no 'lack of morals', or 'ethics'. They are very strongly attuned to injustice, and the way the world should be around them. They try to speak out and get people to understand this through their work.

    It's just impossible to understand feelings from an objective standpoint. And I think that's why we second guess ourselves.
    Thank you, it's always nice to know that there are others like myself out there.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Doctorjuice's Avatar
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    And also if someone tries hard to be moral or please others I don't think that makes it less likely that they're ENTP. ENTPs use Fe a significant amount and working to please others and paying attention to the emotions of others are characteristics of Fe.

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