[NT] Birthdays are irrational.

[Siúil a Rúin]

Birthdays mean that during every rotation of the earth thousands of people celebrate the earth's rotation around the sun. And there is often cake.

 

[Rasofy]

Actually, not to be a dick,

Don't worry.

Actually, not to be a dick, but it was, since they believed that the heart was part of the sun and taking it out was returning it to its rightful place. Plus you were rewarded with a better afterlife if you died in an "honorable" way. And the common beliefs included needing to sacrifice to the gods to maintain good weather / fertility / lack of natural disasters / etc., so it does really make logical sense to do that, in those cases. As for the logic of those beliefs themselves... science is unfortunately trapped in its time... so I figure they were probably doing what seemed reasonable with the information they had...

I like how you think, but, imo, it doesn't fit the bolded definitions of rational (yes, semantics, I was trying not to get there ). Still, I think it's open to interpretation.

adjective
1.
agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
2.
having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
3.
being in or characterized byfull possession of one's reason; sane; lucid: The patient appeared perfectly rational.
4.
endowed with the faculty of reason: rational beings.
5.
of, pertaining to, or constituting reasoning powers: the rational faculty.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rational

I should mention that irrational doesn't mean stupid. One could even argue that irrational animals are smarter than rational humans, as they don't screw up their habitats in order to fulfill unlimited needs. It just means that it is something hasn't gone through a proper evaluation process. And social norms are this way, because when we are born, the rules are already there, and, for the most part, we are basically forced to adapt to them. Norms are usually born through a rational process but, after a point, we tend not to question them through a rational process. We may design explanations to justify the status quo, but when we can't even look for alternatives from a neutral perspective (without letting imposed values affect us too much), we are basically attempting to make what was imposed to us in a irrational way rational.

 

[Coriolis]

Exactly. And who wants to celebrate someone's death anyway. Lol though ironically I used to have a doctor that I went to and he died. He died of alcohol poisoning and he had a very nontraditional funeral. At his funeral everyone dressed in Hawaiian clothes and sipped cocktails and they even played Jimmy Buffet's "Margaritaville". LMAO!

The feast days of the Catholic saints generally correspond to they day of their death.

As for the OP, there are really two questions here:

1. Is it irrational to commemorate the anniversary of someone's birth?

2. Are the things people do to commemorate birthdays irrational?

One can similar questions about Christmas, Memorial Day, Halloween, or any other external event: is it rational (or worthwhile) to observe it; and how is it most effectively observed?

 

[skylights]

Norms are usually born through a rational process but, after a point, we tend not to question them through a rational process. We may design explanations to justify the status quo, but when we can't even look for alternatives from a neutral perspective (without letting imposed values affect us too much), we are basically attempting to make what was imposed to us in a irrational way rational.

Yes, this is true. And I will agree with you that it's not particularly smart, but I do see how there would be "scientific" basis for the belief in divinities that controlled natural phenomena - after all, it is true that celestial bodies control things like heat, rain, wind, eclipses - and without proper knowledge for understanding how that bright shiny thing remained "suspended" in the sky despite other objects being subject to Earth's gravity pull (I assume they did not have balloons), it could have been a fairly reasonable scientific conclusion at the time to believe that something was holding it up. And they may have noticed that things seemed to run more smoothly while they were sacrificing people than when they weren't (but correlation does not equal causation...) I do give you, however, that jumping from those conclusions to "[The sun] is a god named Wijsdf;er who must be sacrificed to every 57th day or we will have locust plagues" isn't particularly rational.


I suppose I should have specified that I do not think that scene in itself is a depiction of a rational act, but the theory behind the act could be at least in part rational. Such it is with birthdays, too, I think. Rational to take note of the date of your birth, because it is useful for a number of instances, both practically and socially. The ritual of cake and presents is more of a jump.

 

[Thalassa]

Yes, this is true. And I will agree with you that it's not particularly smart, but I do see how there would be "scientific" basis for the belief in divinities that controlled natural phenomena - after all, it is true that celestial bodies control things like heat, rain, wind, eclipses - and without proper knowledge for understanding how that bright shiny thing remained "suspended" in the sky despite other objects being subject to Earth's gravity pull (I assume they did not have balloons), it could have been a fairly reasonable scientific conclusion at the time to believe that something was holding it up. And they may have noticed that things seemed to run more smoothly while they were sacrificing people than when they weren't (but correlation does not equal causation...) I do give you, however, that jumping from those conclusions to "[The sun] is a god named Wijsdf;er who must be sacrificed to every 57th day or we will have locust plagues" isn't particularly rational.


I suppose I should have specified that I do not think that scene in itself is a depiction of a rational act, but the theory behind the act could be at least in part rational.

It's actually incredibly "smart" to make up reasons for why things are as they are. It's based not only in imagination, but sometimes even in basic science that was highly applicable during the time period, like how many Jewish laws make sense in terms of health in the context of their geographic location, time period in history, and level of technology.

Rituals can also be meditative and put people in a particularly peaceful state of mind.

To say that something isn't "smart" because it isn't modern is entirely absurd. It's also irrational for the OP to presume there are more Ti or Te types, or more NTs now than there were thousands of years ago in varying world cultures.

I think the OP has a poor grasp of what is "rational" in individual contexts that differ from his own experience or value system.

 

[Thalassa]

The feast days of the Catholic saints generally correspond to they day of their death.

As for the OP, there are really two questions here:

1. Is it irrational to commemorate the anniversary of someone's birth?

2. Are the things people do to commemorate birthdays irrational?

One can similar questions about Christmas, Memorial Day, Halloween, or any other external event: is it rational (or worthwhile) to observe it; and how is it most effectively observed?

You make a very valid point. There's not necessarily anything "irrational" about cultural preservation, and there are other ways of observing those holidays (if they are meaningful to you personally) that have nothing to do with corporate propaganda to SPEND SPEND SPEND on those holidays. It's very important to extract corporate propaganda for extravagant spending from the purpose behind holidays.

I'm sure most doctors would say fun and play are beneficial to health, so in that regard no holiday would be "irrational" and studies have shown that religious people and prayer have positive effects on psychological aspects of human health such as having a social circle or having hope and faith.

What I can't get over in this thread is the denial that there are OTHER PERSPECTIVES which make broad concepts more rational, if they are extricated from a singular rigid perspective.

Of course following cultural norms to just "go through the motions" is foolish, I would never argue that.

 

[Rasofy]

The feast days of the Catholic saints generally correspond to they day of their death.

As for the OP, there are really two questions here:

1. Is it irrational to commemorate the anniversary of someone's birth?

2. Are the things people do to commemorate birthdays irrational?

One can similar questions about Christmas, Memorial Day, Halloween, or any other external event: is it rational (or worthwhile) to observe it; and how is it most effectively observed?

That's a good breakdown.

Yes, this is true. And I will agree with you that it's not particularly smart, but I do see how there would be "scientific" basis for the belief in divinities that controlled natural phenomena - after all, it is true that celestial bodies control things like heat, rain, wind, eclipses - and without proper knowledge for understanding how that bright shiny thing remained "suspended" in the sky despite other objects being subject to Earth's gravity pull (I assume they did not have balloons), it could have been a fairly reasonable scientific conclusion at the time to believe that something was holding it up. And they may have noticed that things seemed to run more smoothly while they were sacrificing people than when they weren't (but correlation does not equal causation...) I do give you, however, that jumping from those conclusions to "[The sun] is a god named Wijsdf;er who must be sacrificed to every 57th day or we will have locust plagues" isn't particularly rational.


I suppose I should have specified that I do not think that scene in itself is a depiction of a rational act, but the theory behind the act could be at least in part rational. Such it is with birthdays, too, I think. Rational to take note of the date of your birth, because it is useful for a number of instances, both practically and socially. The ritual of cake and presents is more of a jump.

Yep.

It's also irrational for the OP to presume there are more Ti or Te types, or more NTs now than there were thousands of years ago in varying world cultures.

Seriously?! Where did you get that from?

I think the OP has a poor grasp of what is "rational" in individual contexts that differ from his own experience or value system.

I've covered the semantics aspect. The statement was basically an opinion, open for debate. That's why I asked ''What do you think?'' at the end. Bold? Yes. Inaccurate? That depends on the definition you adopt. A lot of people mentioned practical reasons to contradict it, and I listened. Heck, I even complimented Red Herring's post- which directly contradicted my views. As long as the argument you use isn't ''omg bro, that's the ethical thing to do'', or ''omg dood, that's not how you should look at friendships'', I'm willing to discuss. The discussion was meant to be pragmatic. Anyone that isn't able to take a pragmatic approach is in the wrong subforum (and thread).

 

[Thalassa]

I've covered the semantics aspect. The statement was basically an opinion, open for debate. That's why I asked ''What do you think?'' at the end. Bold? Yes. Inaccurate? That depends on the definition you adopt. A lot of people mentioned practical reasons to contradict it, and I listened. Heck, I even complimented Red Herring's post- which directly contradicted my views. As long as the argument you use isn't ''omg bro, that's the ethical thing to do'', or ''omg dood, that's not how you should look at friendships'', I'm willing to discuss. The discussion was meant to be pragmatic. Anyone that isn't able to take a pragmatic approach is in the wrong subforum (and thread).

Can you not READ? I gave you a pragmatic solution to your problem in my first post. Where did I tell you that you weren't being ethical? Do you not realize that I told you that you could celebrate birthdays WITHOUT spending beaucoup bucks, and offer several cheaper solutions that your friends/family still might appreciate? I even said, hey, wish someone well if you don't want to throw a party or cook dinner. I informed you that the error you were making was confusing the celebration of birthdays with a capitalist social norm.

 

[animenagai]

Well, we're an economy based on capitalism. If you don't like it then go to China,

lol at the thought that China isn't capitalist

Back to the OP, I'm not sure what rationality has to do with anything. It's just an excuse for celebration. Watching sports isn't rational either, but it's fun. In a similar way, birthdays aren't rational, but they're enjoyable. So what if it's irrational?

 

[Thalassa]

Ah but think of the possibility of not having Christmas. If there were no Christmas, then there would be no "Black Friday". Oh and if we didn't have "Black Friday" then just think of what that would do to the economy. Black Friday gives a BIG BOOST to our "consumer based" economy every year. lol, you sir are a communist.

You're confusing corporatism with capitalism, first of all. Black Friday is a corporate invention, while we could surely still exist in a capitalist society without flagrant corporatism.

Furthermore, there's a long wide middle space between corporate capitalism and actual communism.

I suggest you do some reading about the economies of other nations.

Well, we're an economy based on capitalism. If you don't like it then go to China,

Starting with China apparently.

Hoo boy.

 

[Thalassa]

So what if it's irrational?

This is another good point. There's a large part of humanity that is vital to our existence that isn't rational. For example belief in supernatural things isn't in line with rational thought....but neither is being an artist, or determining what makes another person "kind" or "nice."

There's actually a point when rational thought becomes irrational, when the person moves so far away from facts and experiences into rationalization that they're entirely detached from anything that's real.

In fact, a person can rationalize themselves into poor mental and emotional health, by declaring that varying things like fun, relationships, and creativity aren't "rational."

It's why I hate nihilism. It seems like going full-circle from being rational to complete emotional retardation. There's a point where rationality becomes stupid.

That's why we have both a left and right brain.

Still, my argument in this thread has been that what is "rational" includes ethical value systems and human structures of society that serve rational purposes, though they may not fit a detached, Ti system of what the Ti user personally finds rational.

I think that's why it's crucial to realize that Fi and Fe are rational functions, though they are not logical. All judgement functions are rational.

Furthermore, Ti isn't a fully objective function. It's SUBJECTIVE objectivity, so it contains an unfortunate element of applying rationality to a very personal, individualized subcontext. This is very useful in picking things apart into very small pieces and deconstructing very particular ideas...but if the basic foundation for a Ti rationality is wrong, even if the logic is perfect, the entire house of card FAILS. Te is objective objectivity so it is more objectively logical than Ti, but lacks Ti's depth and precision.

 

[Rasofy]

[MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION]
I'd love to help you fill 10+ pages worth of discussions that go from nothing to nowhere. It could be pretty amusing: lots of drama, people taking sides, random smartass remarks, a couple of doorslams, etc, but I don't have much free time currently. Also, maybe I'm already too old for that.
Don't get me wrong, I love your posts (I've even complimented about 3 of them directly), but is not my thing.
Tip: You missed a obvious joke made by The Great One.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=6877]Marmie Dearest[/MENTION]
I'd love to help you fill 10+ pages worth of discussions that go from nothing to nowhere. It could be pretty amusing: lots of drama, people taking sides, random smartass remarks, a couple of doorslams, etc, but I don't have much free time currently. Also, maybe I'm already too old for that.

You're an INTP. You were probably too old for it when you were 5. I, on the other hand, will be enjoying drama, random smartass remarks, birthdays etc. when I'm 80.

Don't get me wrong, I love your posts (I've even complimented about 3 of them directly), but is not my thing.

Your "direct" is apparently my "indirect." I've experienced this with other INTx males, where they thought they were being painfully obvious, and I could have sworn they were being passive-aggressively intentionally vague.

Tip: You missed a obvious joke made by The Great One.

Really? Is he a communiss?

 

[Rasofy]

You're an INTP. You were probably too old for it when you were 5. I, on the other hand, will be enjoying drama, random smartass remarks, etc. when I'm 80.

Your "direct" is apparently my "indirect." I've experienced this with other INTx males, where they thought they were being painfully obvious, and I could have sworn they were being passive-aggressively intentionally vague.

Really? Is he a communiss?

Nah. He's an ENTP.

 

[ceecee]

*shrug* I like my birthdays.

 

[skylights]

It's actually incredibly "smart" to make up reasons for why things are as they are. It's based not only in imagination, but sometimes even in basic science that was highly applicable during the time period, like how many Jewish laws make sense in terms of health in the context of their geographic location, time period in history, and level of technology.

Rituals can also be meditative and put people in a particularly peaceful state of mind.

To say that something isn't "smart" because it isn't modern is entirely absurd.

Actually my usage of "smart" had nothing to do with modernity - I was more thinking about how they unconsciously were screwing themselves over. I'm sure we still are in the present day, in many ways, just like mercury in hats and medical bloodletting at various times in history. Rational doesn't equate to smart, either, when you're killing your population off.

Unless there's someone in particular you'd like to get rid of, I suppose.

 

[Stanton Moore]

oh i like any reason to celebrate but i don't care about gifts and even less about gifts that are given out of expectation. i do like fun things tho...fun things to celebrate with friends for just any reason.

Please don't try to be reasonable in an unreasonable thread. Forum police!

 

[Rasofy]

Please don't try to be reasonable in an unreasonable thread. Forum police!

Your invaluable contribution to the forum is appreciated.

 

[Stanton Moore]

Your invaluable contribution to the forum is appreciated.

Happy birthday!!

 

[Rasofy]