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  1. #21
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Its well known that INTPs resent authority. While the INTJs have learned conformance and as such can work with groups.
    resenting authority may not always mean not working with it. generally, an intp would toe the line unless one of their principles has been violated; upon which, the intp will then assert himself/herself. otherwise, external authority doesn't much bother a classic intp. (note, i'm talking pure achetype here. individuals will vary, of course.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    INTPs are not superior, they have huge holes in dependecy and contingency thinking. Their advice should be restrained generally to where the impacts are safely contained (ie science rather than business decisions).
    my dear. Since when did i say intps were superior. the point is this: each type has its flaws and strengths, and as such, type should never be an excuse for lack of character. it is too easy a fallback.

    that is why i said the intp could work on being more socially aware, while the intj could work on letting go, and not being in control all the time.

    if anything else, type should let one realise one's strengths, and more importantly, weaknesses.

    if the bolded is not a sweeping generalisation and a prime example of Te, i don't know what else would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post

    Quite possibly we could say that INTPs take the path of least resistance and go for the non physical world and as such go more down the introversion path.
    true. because the intp's aim is NOT to interfere with the physical world. it boils down to one thing: control. intps seek to master their own internal world, and systems, which is why the external world is pared down to a minimum. it allows for better thought.

    it doesn't mean that all intps are socially inept though. like i said, it is a matter of maturity. Any person of any type who's well adjusted would know the necessity of balancing your personal self, with the external world.

    it's a maladjusted version of any type, who'd just insist on his/her own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Have you ever considered that the group collectively may prefer the impartial Fi to the falsely acted Fe?

    Just maybe the group prefers the resolute, impartial and honest traits of the INTJ. If mimicking Fe was important to an INTJ then we'd follow that path... remember that INTJs are the ultimate pragmatists, we're not all just random occurrences in this trait quadrant.
    hm....Fi is never impartial; because it seeks to act upon its own inner values, which may not always be what the group agrees with. And treading on dangerous grounds here, but perhaps honesty is not always the best policy. Between a comforting lie and the hard truth, most would prefer the lie? that, perhaps, is why American society is so big on the concept of "positive reinforcement."

    What a group prefers is too difficult to discuss on hypothesis, i think. --one has to take into account what the group members comprises of. If it is people who seek to be led, then an INTJ would do well.

    as an aside: interdynamics are always what's more interesting, than type itself per se.


    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    By implication if INTPs spend less time around people and won't conform then they will be less interested in people as a science. Thats just probablistic logic.
    Eh. as i said, it depends on the individual intp. if an intp is interested in people as a system, they'd be good at it too. as a group tho, perhaps both are socially inept!

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    INTJs work with ISTJs as effective teams. INTJs per say, don't give a monkeys if others do not want to be part of the team. I think you'll find that INTJs are half way between the stubborn disorgansied INTP and the overly process driven ISTJ. As you know, the final trait element is supposed to be the weakest, the J we have is generally acquired/developed in order to achieve and deliver things. I think an INTP that scores low on the P scale is virtually an INTJ, and vice versa.
    yeps. the degree of the scale matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Firstly, cinderella was organised enough to attend the ball. And secondly, by the time a INTP made it to the ball, they'd be a pumpkin.
    bwahahhahahha! i can't say i disagree with you here! *looks around forlornly at her carriage turned into a pumpkin*

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    That could be a big difference, INTJs implement. Without implementation they have not achieved anything... We alter the physical world, INTPs revert to the inner world. Hence, the argument for INTPs being less social.

    Anyway, that was fun.
    lol. because the point is, INTPs don't want to implement. they just wanna tinker with the system, figure it out, and move on. the classic intp views the world as a huge playground. there are things to play with! and so, he/she would play with that toy til it's figured out, and move on. there's seldom any attempt to implement, to change the playground.

    for an intp, it's a need to understand, and then, to leave the world the way you found it. "take nothing but memories, leave nothing but footprints." this could very well be an intp's philosophy with regards to the external world.

    but seriously, back to the topic: an intp is like a child in relationships. he/she is likely to love purely, and deeply, and enthusiastically. just that the affection will not always be shown in conventional ways. like the intj, the intp feels very intensely; only that the intp will show his/her emotions, while the intj does not. for most intps, if they like you, they like you; if they don't, they don't. there's rarely any pretence in their emotions.

    yea. fun. *shakes hands!*
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  2. #22
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    I think the most egotistic INTPs are the new ones who just realized that they are, in reality, INTPs.

    Society raised people (especially males) to be TJs (academe, corporate world, etc.), and I have a theory that the most egotistic INTPs are those that are suffering from quarter life crisis (I don't think teenagers with teenage angst give too much interest with MBTI as a body of thought) who need to assert their innate INTP inclinations that have been sort of curtailed by the TJ world.

    For one, they have to assert the value of logic (Ti), and the value of reading between the lines (NP), as the J function promotes prejudice.

    TJ's also prioritize logic (Te) but it's empirical logic. And sometimes, being objective about things where it is understood as a rigid structure, is not an overall representation of the bigger picture (an INTP stronghold).

    I think, in this early stage of INTP realization, the P is pretty much balanced with the J (hence, Ti and Te, and also Ni and Ne), and this J that slugs it out with the P could be the source of the INTP ego.

    Eventually, as the INTP's P function considerably overpowers the J function, his judgment diminishes (probably getting a point of vindication at some point, like acceptance from people who most lkely doesn't understand him) and he continues to be in a "learner" mode with an eventual realization that he no longer wants to "change the world" of some sort.

    I think this is where the chameleon INTP mode starts to kick in, where he may give the other person the benefit of the doubt in asserting his viewpoint so that the INTP guy can analyze where the guy's perspective is coming from.
    The P function listens attentively, where the more mature INTP guy is starting to analyze frameworks not bounded by conventional logic (the default Ti framework). This can be seen by other people as empathy.

  3. #23
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post
    I think the most egotistic INTPs are the new ones who just realized that they are, in reality, INTPs.
    hehe. i think this applies to all types.

    i really believe still though, that type isn't the be all and end all of character. it just gives the blueprint for which action is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypocalypse View Post

    For one, they have to assert the value of logic (Ti), and the value of reading between the lines (NP), as the J function promotes prejudice.

    TJ's also prioritize logic (Te) but it's empirical logic. And sometimes, being objective about things where it is understood as a rigid structure, is not an overall representation of the bigger picture (an INTP stronghold).

    I think, in this early stage of INTP realization, the P is pretty much balanced with the J (hence, Ti and Te, and also Ni and Ne), and this J that slugs it out with the P could be the source of the INTP ego.

    Eventually, as the INTP's P function considerably overpowers the J function, his judgment diminishes (probably getting a point of vindication at some point, like acceptance from people who most lkely doesn't understand him) and he continues to be in a "learner" mode with an eventual realization that he no longer wants to "change the world" of some sort.

    I think this is where the chameleon INTP mode starts to kick in, where he may give the other person the benefit of the doubt in asserting his viewpoint so that the INTP guy can analyze where the guy's perspective is coming from.
    The P function listens attentively, where the more mature INTP guy is starting to analyze frameworks not bounded by conventional logic (the default Ti framework). This can be seen by other people as empathy.
    very astute observations.

    oh so this is what you mean by a chameleon INTP mode. and yes, the P listens, and is more accepting of differences. Which is why, the archetype of the INTP is someone harsh and critical, but i think, when an intp is more mature, he/she becomes more open, and childlike: because of the Ne. And the P provides an outlet, where you do not need to enforce your beliefs on others, nor need their approval. and in this way, the intp learns to grow into his own, while giving space for others to be themselves. Which perhaps is why such 'softer' INTPs are often mistaken for INFPs.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  4. #24
    Junior Member martin87's Avatar
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    I can sit in a group of people and not say a word drifting away into my thoughts. Though I can get very social at times, given the right group of people and given the chance to express my point of view. Also since I know strengths and weaknesses in my personality I can sometimes force myself to be social and self confident in a large group of people.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Butterfly's Avatar
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    Great discussion, Im learning so much from it about NTs and other issues.
    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    an intp is like a child in relationships. he/she is likely to love purely, and deeply, and enthusiastically. just that the affection will not always be shown in conventional ways....the intp feels very intensely;
    I really really would like to know how an INTP is when he/she is in love??
    How do they feel/think?? Is it over fast? does it die down as the theory says? Theory says it becomes 'impersonal' and structured, is that true??
    Sorry too many questions, but Im curious

  6. #26
    Junior Member martin87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Great discussion, Im learning so much from it about NTs and other issues.
    Also:


    I really really would like to know how an INTP is when he/she is in love??
    How do they feel/think?? Is it over fast? does it die down as the theory says? Theory says it becomes 'impersonal' and structured, is that true??
    Sorry too many questions, but Im curious
    If we are talking about an INTP who hasn't had much experience with women then he will probably say it to you openly. Unfortunately that doesn't work out quite well so a bit more experienced INTP would be more careful. Though an INTP wants YOU to be as straight forward as possible. The best thing you can say to him is "you know, I like you! Lets hang out some time!". He hates people who walk around in circles and force him to guess what these people are actually thinking. When INTP falls in love, it's usually deep and involves a lot of thinking about the person he has fallen in love with. He can even be so in love that it would disturb his everyday activities. Thats why he wants to know as soon as possible how you feel, so that he can decide if you are worth spending his time on or if he should move on.

  7. #27
    Junior Member martin87's Avatar
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    As far as getting impersonal and structured.. I think INTPs just get bored with certain people after a while, even though the relationship works out quite well. You have to make sure he can feed on your extroverted side, and as I said before, be direct and straight to the point

  8. #28
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    First, although it's been argued that the personality is governed by nature (genetics), and not by nurture, we don't have 100% ability of all4 dimensions or all 8 cognitive functions.

    for instance,
    INTP cognitive functions are Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi
    INTJ cognitive functions are Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si

    also note that as we grow and mature, we use develop our dominant function first, then move on down to our "inferior" function. (I haven't been able to find a coherent description of all 8 cognitive functions, although they are somewhat similar)

    so infant/toddler/grade school INTPs and INTJs develop their Ti and Ni respectively.

    about 10-20 it's the secondary function
    from about 20-35 it's the tertiary
    from about 35-50, it's the inferior
    then from 50 till death, either mastery of all 4, or continuation of the last four, or what's called the shadow functions

    If you follow the works of Descartes, you'll find he wrote of music, then math, the philosophy, then love. Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. not bad huh ?

    I don't know off hand, but the INTJ role models probably have a similar correlation, but their own respective cognitive functions

    I'm not sure how old/mature you are, but consider the possibility that you aren't well done, until you are 5 minutes from death. The good enough point is probably retirement.

    about the question of Anti-social behavior,
    INTP extraverted functions are Ne and Fe
    INTJ extraverted functions are Te and Se

    INTPs generally interpret (Ne) situations then connect (Fe) them in a certain way. internally, they would take that and analyze it (Ti) and review it (Si).

    INTJs generally order surroundings (Te) then scan (Se) them in ways that makes sense to them. then they would foresee implications (Ni) and put values (Fi) on it.

    I'm not sure if that's being anti social. anti-social to me is some sort of psychic collision between 2 conflicting goals. if all humans are social creatures, then even INTP and INTJ are social creatures. we just have a different way of socializing, which is opposite of being anti-social.

    tug of war
    For INTPs, Ti and Fi marks the 1st and 8th function. Ti is the analyzing function and the Fi is the valuing function.

    the 1st function is called the leading function snipped from the internet:

    The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood. We tend to engage in this process first, trusting it to solve our problems and help us be successful. Being the most trusted and most used, it usually has an adult, mature quality to it. While we are likely to engage in it rather automatically and effortlessly, we have much more conscious control over it. The energy cost for using it is very low. Much like in the movies, the leading role has a heroic quality as using it can get us out of difficult situations. However, we can sometimes

  9. #29
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    got cut off


    tug of war
    For INTPs, Ti and Fi marks the 1st and 8th function. Ti is the analyzing function and the Fi is the valuing function.

    the 1st function is called the leading function snipped from the internet:

    The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood. We tend to engage in this process first, trusting it to solve our problems and help us be successful. Being the most trusted and most used, it usually has an adult, mature quality to it. While we are likely to engage in it rather automatically and effortlessly, we have much more conscious control over it. The energy cost for using it is very low. Much like in the movies, the leading role has a heroic quality as using it can get us out of difficult situations. However, we can sometimes

  10. #30
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    First, although it's been argued that the personality is governed by nature (genetics), and not by nurture, we don't have 100% ability of all4 dimensions or all 8 cognitive functions.

    for instance,
    INTP cognitive functions are Ti Ne Si Fe Te Ni Se Fi
    INTJ cognitive functions are Ni Te Fi Se Ne Ti Fe Si

    also note that as we grow and mature, we use develop our dominant function first, then move on down to our "inferior" function. (I haven't been able to find a coherent description of all 8 cognitive functions, although they are somewhat similar)

    so infant/toddler/grade school INTPs and INTJs develop their Ti and Ni respectively.

    about 10-20 it's the secondary function
    from about 20-35 it's the tertiary
    from about 35-50, it's the inferior
    then from 50 till death, either mastery of all 4, or continuation of the last four, or what's called the shadow functions

    If you follow the works of Descartes, you'll find he wrote of music, then math, the philosophy, then love. Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. not bad huh ?

    I don't know off hand, but the INTJ role models probably have a similar correlation, but their own respective cognitive functions

    I'm not sure how old/mature you are, but consider the possibility that you aren't well done, until you are 5 minutes from death. The good enough point is probably retirement.

    about the question of Anti-social behavior,
    INTP extraverted functions are Ne and Fe
    INTJ extraverted functions are Te and Se

    INTPs generally interpret (Ne) situations then connect (Fe) them in a certain way. internally, they would take that and analyze it (Ti) and review it (Si).

    INTJs generally order surroundings (Te) then scan (Se) them in ways that makes sense to them. then they would foresee implications (Ni) and put values (Fi) on it.

    I'm not sure if that's being anti social. anti-social to me is some sort of psychic collision between 2 conflicting goals. if all humans are social creatures, then even INTP and INTJ are social creatures. we just have a different way of socializing, which is opposite of being anti-social.

    tug of war
    For INTPs, Ti and Fi marks the 1st and 8th function. Ti is the analyzing function and the Fi is the valuing function.

    the 1st function is called the leading function snipped from the internet:

    The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood. We tend to engage in this process first, trusting it to solve our problems and help us be successful. Being the most trusted and most used, it usually has an adult, mature quality to it. While we are likely to engage in it rather automatically and effortlessly, we have much more conscious control over it. The energy cost for using it is very low. Much like in the movies, the leading role has a heroic quality as using it can get us out of difficult situations. However, we can sometimes 'turn up the volume' on this process and become overbearing and domineering. Then it takes on a negative dominating quality.

    the 8th function is called the devlish function, snipped from the itnernet:

    The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new

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