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[INTJ] Common INTJ Issues

Evo

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Noted. (grey_beard sighs, wipes perspiration off of brow.)

I just can't speak for others though >.>


This is not a grudge, we bear no ill will (intrinsically) unless we know the damage to us was done with malice aforethought. Otherwise, it is merely efficiency in self-preservation.
The reason third chances are not given is simply that we know by that point, that further chances will be useless, and will only result in additional (foreseeable, therefore unnecessary)
harm to ourselves.

Yea I kind of experience this process myself. I don't hold a grudge unless I know intentions were proven to be with ill will.

Except I probably have a lot more endurance cause my Ni is not as up to par with the patterns as an Ni dom's.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Sorry for the thread necro, but you nailed it in *one*. (Yes, that's redundant, as I see you are an INTJ, and by definition would be expected both to get it right, and to be able to describe is *succinctly*.)
Nonetheless, it was so well executed that I felt compelled to applaud in public.
I just wrote how I see it, as I usually do on topics like this. Glad it made sense to you.

This is not a grudge, we bear no ill will (intrinsically) unless we know the damage to us was done with malice aforethought. Otherwise, it is merely efficiency in self-preservation.
The reason third chances are not given is simply that we know by that point, that further chances will be useless, and will only result in additional (foreseeable, therefore unnecessary)
harm to ourselves.
All my life I have found it very hard to maintain a grudge. I have a long memory, but will allow it to be overridden immediately when confronted by convincing evidence that the person has changed, or at least understands and regrets their prior offenses. I suppose to do otherwise is a form of denying reality on emotional grounds, something I will not consciously do.
 

á´…eparted

passages
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The biggest issues I have, is the proverbial bar. It's a common thing with INTJ's from what I have noticed. However, with me also being a 1w2 this is amped way the fuck up.

It's set, I get close to it, and it is moved higher. So I get closer yet again, and it gets pushed up higher. Rinse, wash, repeat. Day in day out with pretty much everything. I am never good enough, friends are never good enough, food is never good enough, nothing is ever good enough. Everything could always be better in some manner. I have learned to deal with this over the years and I get less hung up on things because of it. It has been bad enough in the past that my desire for perfection or fretting that something is not good enough had flat out paralyzed me from being able to move forward at all for long periods of time. No option is good enough, everything has an issue? Fine, I choose NOTHING. The desire for pristine progress stopped any sort of progress at all. Such irony. What's of most particular interest to me, partly because I doubt I will ever be able to fix it, is how I respond to actually meeting the bar. Seeing what perfect or the best actually truly is, is terrifying.

The best example in recent memory was the conclusion of my first year of graduate school. I got the award for being the top first year graduate student. When my name got called, my eyes literally went wide and thought "WHAT?". I went up onto the front, took it, and just sort of looked at it and felt "...why? I don't deserve this.". I truly didn't feel that I did. I was told it was based on an objective record of first year coursework overall, as well as progress in research. Apparently put together I did the best. But man, I wholely did not agree with that. I knew for a fact I did not try my hardest (I never do) in my classes, and even got the lowest grade in one of my first term courses (NMR spectroscopy is difficult for me). My advisor was SO proud, was very contradulatory, etc. I felt horrible. It was an icky sick feeling. I did not believe that I deserved the award. I didn't do my best, and there had to be someone else that did better or was trying harder than I was. There was just absolutely no way. I questioned it, asked people, and eventually felt guilty for appearing unappreciative or undeserving of it. Winning this upset me enough that I actually began to do poorly. Partly because, I know had to set the bar for myself SUPER high. Much much higher than I knew I could even slightly reach, because others would expect me to preform at top notch all the time, and I know I can't do that. Thus I was garunteed to fail, and I could see it coming at me in the distance like a bullet train made of lead.

It's a catch 22. I must be perfect, I must always do well, but if I actually make the grade and AM the best? I feel terrible. Much, much more so if it is unexpected. It's as if I am not supposed to be perfect but must strive for it. I have enountered this sort of issue in relationships as well. I have blocked myself from seeing romantic partners many times because I felt I was not in a pristine enough state to be worthy of dating. Or, that I was in a bad enough state that it would be unfair to subject others to myself in those states. It would have to wait until I was better. I have also applied it to others, secretly. I am very choosy with friends, and I shrug off some of them if they are in not a good enough state (also assuming my reserves are low, if they are high I can be fine with it).

Things can ALWAYS be better. What's worse, is I can very easily see how they can be better. I can nitpick things, people (in particular people) and cut them to ribbons on where things can be improved. The problem is, once it's known, how is it dealt with? What's the best way to move forward? It's something that has no good or correct answer. At least for me with where I am at now. Oh well.
 

grey_beard

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I just wrote how I see it, as I usually do on topics like this. Glad it made sense to you.
Again, shake hands all round. :)

All my life I have found it very hard to maintain a grudge. I have a long memory, but will allow it to be overridden immediately when confronted by convincing evidence that the person has changed, or at least understands and regrets their prior offenses. I suppose to do otherwise is a form of denying reality on emotional grounds, something I will not consciously do.
Hail and well met!
:cheers:
 

grey_beard

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The biggest issues I have, is the proverbial bar. It's a common thing with INTJ's from what I have noticed. However, with me also being a 1w2 this is amped way the fuck up.

It's set, I get close to it, and it is moved higher. So I get closer yet again, and it gets pushed up higher. Rinse, wash, repeat. Day in day out with pretty much everything. I am never good enough, friends are never good enough, food is never good enough, nothing is ever good enough. Everything could always be better in some manner. I have learned to deal with this over the years and I get less hung up on things because of it. It has been bad enough in the past that my desire for perfection or fretting that something is not good enough had flat out paralyzed me from being able to move forward at all for long periods of time. No option is good enough, everything has an issue? Fine, I choose NOTHING. The desire for pristine progress stopped any sort of progress at all. Such irony. What's of most particular interest to me, partly because I doubt I will ever be able to fix it, is how I respond to actually meeting the bar. Seeing what perfect or the best actually truly is, is terrifying.

The best example in recent memory was the conclusion of my first year of graduate school. I got the award for being the top first year graduate student. When my name got called, my eyes literally went wide and thought "WHAT?". I went up onto the front, took it, and just sort of looked at it and felt "...why? I don't deserve this.". I truly didn't feel that I did. I was told it was based on an objective record of first year coursework overall, as well as progress in research. Apparently put together I did the best. But man, I wholely did not agree with that. I knew for a fact I did not try my hardest (I never do) in my classes, and even got the lowest grade in one of my first term courses (NMR spectroscopy is difficult for me). My advisor was SO proud, was very contradulatory, etc. I felt horrible. It was an icky sick feeling. I did not believe that I deserved the award. I didn't do my best, and there had to be someone else that did better or was trying harder than I was. There was just absolutely no way. I questioned it, asked people, and eventually felt guilty for appearing unappreciative or undeserving of it. Winning this upset me enough that I actually began to do poorly. Partly because, I know had to set the bar for myself SUPER high. Much much higher than I knew I could even slightly reach, because others would expect me to preform at top notch all the time, and I know I can't do that. Thus I was garunteed to fail, and I could see it coming at me in the distance like a bullet train made of lead.

It's a catch 22. I must be perfect, I must always do well, but if I actually make the grade and AM the best? I feel terrible. Much, much more so if it is unexpected. It's as if I am not supposed to be perfect but must strive for it. I have enountered this sort of issue in relationships as well. I have blocked myself from seeing romantic partners many times because I felt I was not in a pristine enough state to be worthy of dating. Or, that I was in a bad enough state that it would be unfair to subject others to myself in those states. It would have to wait until I was better. I have also applied it to others, secretly. I am very choosy with friends, and I shrug off some of them if they are in not a good enough state (also assuming my reserves are low, if they are high I can be fine with it).

Things can ALWAYS be better. What's worse, is I can very easily see how they can be better. I can nitpick things, people (in particular people) and cut them to ribbons on where things can be improved. The problem is, once it's known, how is it dealt with? What's the best way to move forward? It's something that has no good or correct answer. At least for me with where I am at now. Oh well.
What is/was your major? PhD in Chemical Physics here. :hi:
 

grey_beard

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Pretty darn close to you. Going for a PhD in organic chemistry (total synthesis focus). Aka, I am nuts.
Molecular Collision theory. A totally different kind of nuts -- I kept breaking glassware as an undergrad...I didn't realize I'd have just as much "fun" breaking *CODE*.
Have you checked out the blog

http:www.corante.com

by a drug discovery chemist?
 

á´…eparted

passages
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Molecular Collision theory. A totally different kind of nuts -- I kept breaking glassware as an undergrad...I didn't realize I'd have just as much "fun" breaking *CODE*.
Have you checked out the blog

http:www.corante.com

by a drug discovery chemist?

Better you than me! I hate dealing with computers. Even having to deal with the NMR programs is annoying enough. I feel much more comfortable working with something I can physically move around; I feel like I have much more control. For a while I wasn't quite sure I could handle the synthetic side because of my clumsiness. But, if I am able to handle working with pure OsO4 and not die, or make an organozinc compound with only 0.02M loss in concentration, I think I can handle it :). Ask me to write a code? Someone get me a sledge hammer and an asprin...

I have known I wanted to be a chemist from 10 years old, and in high school discovered organic which became my focus. I was never a big fan of math but was able to slog through it. Once I got to calculus I completely hated math and wanted to never do it again. In organic, all you need to do is count to 4 :D.

Nope, I haven't seen it before. Nifty.
 

uumlau

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The biggest issues I have, is the proverbial bar. It's a common thing with INTJ's from what I have noticed. However, with me also being a 1w2 this is amped way the fuck up.

It's set, I get close to it, and it is moved higher. So I get closer yet again, and it gets pushed up higher. Rinse, wash, repeat. Day in day out with pretty much everything. I am never good enough, friends are never good enough, food is never good enough, nothing is ever good enough.

...

The best example in recent memory was the conclusion of my first year of graduate school. I got the award for being the top first year graduate student. When my name got called, my eyes literally went wide and thought "WHAT?". I went up onto the front, took it, and just sort of looked at it and felt "...why? I don't deserve this.". I truly didn't feel that I did. I was told it was based on an objective record of first year coursework overall, as well as progress in research. Apparently put together I did the best. But man, I wholely did not agree with that. I knew for a fact I did not try my hardest (I never do) in my classes, and even got the lowest grade in one of my first term courses (NMR spectroscopy is difficult for me). My advisor was SO proud, was very contradulatory, etc. I felt horrible. It was an icky sick feeling. I did not believe that I deserved the award.
I would suggest that this is 100% your 1w2. Enneagram is about how you react to things. I'm a type 9 INTJ, not type 1, and as such I tend not to focus on having everything be "perfect", but rather on having everything in working order: working smoothly, but not necessarily fulfilling some ideal of perfection.

I've had occasions much like yours, except instead of thinking, "Wait, there's no way I'm the best person here," I think, "Wow, if I got this, my competition must have really sucked." I don't feel guilty about it, because I'm not comparing it to some absolute ideal that I didn't live up to. Rather, I just end up having contempt for the award. ... The really funny thing about the situation I'm thinking of is that I was totally unaware that this award was highly coveted at that particular school, and I just kind of waltzed in and took it without even realizing it - I didn't even know it existed. So my name is on a permanent plaque at that school for having won that award. *boggle*

Pretty darn close to you. Going for a PhD in organic chemistry (total synthesis focus). Aka, I am nuts.

Earned a Ph.D. in physics (specializing in relativistic astrophysical plasmas) back in the 90s. Ended up going into software development, as that paid a lot more than post-doc work (40k/yr? Really?! Even if you translate from 1990s dollars to modern dollars, it's not the kind of work that pays off college loans or mortgages). Fortunately, the tech bubble was just ramping up, so it was easy to jump in and ride the surge at the time.
 

EclecticTeal

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A lot of issues that INTJs have relate to Ni taking an overly dominant role in their personality. Some examples of this:

Don't listen to other perspectives - At times, the INTJ can quickly dismiss things that others might say and have a tendency to come across like they think they are always right. Even if they do listen, they may not come across like they are. The explanation for much of this is that the INTJ can use Te to cut off new information rather than the more productive use of Te, which is to judge their insights against the external world. [/b]

This has actually been an issue for me when dealing with another INTJ. I don't often offer advice or give my opinion, so when I do I guess I would expect others to listen, especially other INTJs. (Yes, some arrogance here.)

When I am dismissed outright, immediately, and we re-visit the issue later it is apparent I was right.

I guess it's hard to get my own INTJ dismissive attitude thrown back at me, and now that I see how destructive it can be, I'm wondering what is at the root of this. I'm at least Trying not to be a hypocrite. :)

I'm finding this a little hard to understand, because we are usually open to new information. To be so dismissive we must assume we already have all the information needed, or possibly it is a negative/stress response when we don't think we have time to take in new information and need to go ahead and make a decision based on information already stored.

Any thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Zarathustra

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I'm finding this a little hard to understand, because we are usually open to new information. To be so dismissive we must assume we already have all the information needed, or possibly it is a negative/stress response when we don't think we have time to take in new information and need to go ahead and make a decision based on information already stored.

Any thoughts?

It could be either.

Or both.

Or your friend could just be a wanker.
 

Salomé

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[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION]

Why do you find INTJs baffling and/or detestable?
You summoned me into an ancient thread with THREE mentions to answer a question I covered in some depth already?

That might have something to do with it.

J/k. Please don't kill anyone.

I am willing to be instructed / corrected by INTPs
I'm willing to close my mouth & open my (not ears, since we're typing) eyes and learn...
Have you considered that you might not be INTJ? ;)
 

grey_beard

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You summoned me into an ancient thread with THREE mentions to answer a question I covered in some depth already?

That might have something to do with it.

This is "be kind to poor n00bs week," oh [MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] of the 10,000 posts. Thank *you* sincerely for participating. :D

J/k. Please don't kill anyone.

In poor taste given recent news events in California, discussed extensively on TypC.



Have you considered that you might not be INTJ? ;)
Even more telling: I'm 50 and married for decades. Besides, I have college-aged progeny.
They correct me at every opportunity, contrived or not. :dry:
 

Dragonfly

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Hmmm, interesting. I can relate to these even as an ISTP, which is probably why i used to mistype as an INTJ. Not to mention my rediculously overdeveloped Ni... which seems to cause the problems.
 

citizen cane

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A lot of issues that INTJs have relate to Ni taking an overly dominant role in their personality. Some examples of this:

Don't listen to other perspectives - At times, the INTJ can quickly dismiss things that others might say and have a tendency to come across like they think they are always right. Even if they do listen, they may not come across like they are. The explanation for much of this is that the INTJ can use Te to cut off new information rather than the more productive use of Te, which is to judge their insights against the external world.

Overly critical - INTJs are prone to finding fault in things and situations to an excessive degree. They can tend to blame others for things that go wrong or apply judgement towards others rather than themselves.

Don't know know how they come across to others - INTJs, especially when young can be pretty oblivious as to how they come across to other people.

Unrealistic expectations - INTJs can have excessive expectations of others as well as themselves. Nobody measures up.

Hard time communicating - They can have difficulty communicating what is in their mind to others. Sometimes, they are vague and cannot easily express the reasons for the way they thing.

Occasional indecision - Though this is not usually a problem, at times the INTJ can be overwhelmed by all of the different pieces of information, scenarios and sides of an issue making it difficult to reach a decision.


Edit: So, a lot of this is standard INTJ profile stuff. Do you agree with this? Do you see other issues? The thread is targeted at both INTJs and non-INTJs to comment on.

I'm sure the non-INTJs should have plenty to say.

Are you sure this is a specifically INTJ-related list? This sounds like me to a T (pun intended), and I certainly have no reason to believe that I am an INTJ.
 

Feline

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Overly critical - INTJs are prone to finding fault in things and situations to an excessive degree. They can tend to blame others for things that go wrong or apply judgement towards others rather than themselves

I just spoke with a sweet INTJ friend of mine. While talking to her I was thinking about how she isn't how a lot of people think of INTJs. She shows me no criticism whatsoever. And shows what I would call WARMTH. I think she would show criticism if we were in a certain working relationship, maybe coworkers or something. But it would be constructive criticism.

I bet some people think she is an infj.
 

uumlau

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I just spoke with a sweet INTJ friend of mine. While talking to her I was thinking about how she isn't how a lot of people think of INTJs. She shows me no criticism whatsoever. And shows what I would call WARMTH. I think she would show criticism if we were in a certain working relationship, maybe coworkers or something. But it would be constructive criticism.

I bet some people think she is an infj.

There are a few factors that might be in play. In general, female INTJs are more apt to learn the social skills necessary to communicate ideas without undue harshness. Similarly, older INTJs tend to be MUCH more mellow than their younger counterparts.

Another factor I've noted in my experience is Enneagram type. INTJs are very often type 1 or type 5, both of which tend to be fairly critical. Type 6 (e.g., highlander) and Type 9 INTJs (e.g., me) tend to be much less harsh than other INTJs.

Finally, if she's a good friend, that means you get to talk to her in an unguarded way, and INTJs are very much warmer with their close friends and family than with mere acquaintances or strangers.
 

Rambling

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There are a few factors that might be in play. In general, female INTJs are more apt to learn the social skills necessary to communicate ideas without undue harshness. Similarly, older INTJs tend to be MUCH more mellow than their younger counterparts.

Why do female INTJs learn these social skills better? I'm not asking about how it's done, nor really the obvious statement that there are plenty of social expectations of women not placed upon men...since the INTJ doesn't base decisions upon social factors at all, this must be an inner Te / Fi decision; INTJs tend to be totally able and wiling to ignore social expectations; why would female Te / Fi be more *drawn* to learn, or are they just better learners in this context?
 

Coriolis

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Why do female INTJs learn these social skills better? I'm not asking about how it's done, nor really the obvious statement that there are plenty of social expectations of women not placed upon men...since the INTJ doesn't base decisions upon social factors at all, this must be an inner Te / Fi decision; INTJs tend to be totally able and wiling to ignore social expectations; why would female Te / Fi be more *drawn* to learn, or are they just better learners in this context?
I wonder about this myself. I have read that INTJs (perhaps all NTs?) are the type least likely to succumb to social pressures and the expectations of others. As a female INTJ, I have certainly done very little of this.
 

Kullervo

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Why do female INTJs learn these social skills better? I'm not asking about how it's done, nor really the obvious statement that there are plenty of social expectations of women not placed upon men...since the INTJ doesn't base decisions upon social factors at all, this must be an inner Te / Fi decision; INTJs tend to be totally able and wiling to ignore social expectations; why would female Te / Fi be more *drawn* to learn, or are they just better learners in this context?

Because maybe there are gender differences as well as personality ones, something that is constantly put down to environmental conditioning? The former has actually got a fair amount of scientific backing, more than MBTI.

For example:
Gender Differences in Five Factor Model Personality Traits in an Elderly Cohort: Extension of Robust and Surprising Findings to an Older Generation
Sex Differences in the Brain: The Not So Inconvenient Truth

I think a common INTJ issue (especially with loopy ones) is "I am right you are wrong and that's it - you will find out why eventually!" type thinking. I am guilty occasionally, but am by no means the only one who is.
 
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