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  1. #241
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Because maybe there are gender differences as well as personality ones, something that is constantly put down to environmental conditioning? The former has actually got a fair amount of scientific backing, more than MBTI.

    For example:
    Gender Differences in Five Factor Model Personality Traits in an Elderly Cohort: Extension of Robust and Surprising Findings to an Older Generation
    Sex Differences in the Brain: The Not So Inconvenient Truth

    I think a common INTJ issue (especially with loopy ones) is "I am right you are wrong and that's it - you will find out why eventually!" type thinking. I am guilty occasionally, but am by no means the only one who is.
    But what if this is because most women are SFJ and most men STJ?
    Okay, we know type is not scientific, but let's suspend that for a moment & pretend it is. What if it's not women being more neurotic and agreeable, but feeling types? Since more women are feeling types than thinking types, then without that lens, it's just going to look like a male-female difference.

    This seems relevant concerning we are talking about female INTJs & male INTJs. If those male-female differences (and not saying there are none, but referring to some of those you linked) are about most men or most women, then you have a problem applying it to type since most women are not INTJ women, and most men are not, say ESFJ. The standard for women is pretty much xSFJ & no surprise most women will reflect xSFJs in those studies. So are INTJ women adopting some of that because it's biological or because xSFJs define the standard for women & for xSFJs it is natural, and the rest of woman are expected to be the same. You cannot know this if you're just looking at general male-female differences.

    And the idea that INTJ women are more socially adept is just random anecdotes from people. Dario Nardi, using EEG & "brain mapping", says that INFP males are more aware of & responsive to social cues than INFP females - why? Who knows. Maybe it's because INFP is less accepted for a male personality & they feel more need to be aware to adapt to male expectations. Perhaps INTJ females have the same reason for their higher awareness of social cues. This points to personality type & gender norms being the reason, or else INFP females would be them more adaptive ones.

    In any case, there are many possibilities for such observations, which may not point to any pattern in themselves.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  2. #242
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    But what if this is because most women are SFJ and most men STJ?
    Okay, we know type is not scientific, but let's suspend that for a moment & pretend it is. What if it's not women being more neurotic and agreeable, but feeling types? Since more women are feeling types than thinking types, then without that lens, it's just going to look like a male-female difference.
    I have seen this argument before and find it quite reasonable. Most of what are customarily viewed as (non-physical) gender differences are really T/F differences, which map loosely to gender since the majority of women are F, and the majority of men T. These majorities are hardly overwhelming, however (reported percentages are usually ~60-65%), leaving plenty of male Fs and female Ts.

    Of course this begs the question of why more women are F and more men T. I wonder sometimes whether our species has simply bred for it, since T women may be less likely over time to have married/reproduced. I don't know whether this assumption is true, however, nor whether type preferences are inherited, so this is pure speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The standard for women is pretty much xSFJ & no surprise most women will reflect xSFJs in those studies. So are INTJ women adopting some of that because it's biological or because xSFJs define the standard for women & for xSFJs it is natural, and the rest of woman are expected to be the same. You cannot know this if you're just looking at general male-female differences.
    If the differences are really based on type rather than gender, then INTJ women will not be adopting similar behaviors due to biology. I also doubt INTJ women feel driven to follow social expectations to be SFJ-like. I suspect male NFs actually succumb more to pressure to be STJ-like.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And the idea that INTJ women are more socially adept is just random anecdotes from people. Dario Nardi, using EEG & "brain mapping", says that INFP males are more aware of & responsive to social cues than INFP females - why? Who knows. Maybe it's because INFP is less accepted for a male personality & they feel more need to be aware to adapt to male expectations. Perhaps INTJ females have the same reason for their higher awareness of social cues. This points to personality type & gender norms being the reason, or else INFP females would be them more adaptive ones.
    Do INTJ females really have a higher awareness of social cues? Remember, though, that awareness does not guarantee compliance. Few of us know enough INTJ women to have anything other than anecdotal evidence. My anecdotes certainly do not support the notion that INTJ women are more socially adept.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #243
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Why do female INTJs learn these social skills better? I'm not asking about how it's done, nor really the obvious statement that there are plenty of social expectations of women not placed upon men...since the INTJ doesn't base decisions upon social factors at all, this must be an inner Te / Fi decision; INTJs tend to be totally able and wiling to ignore social expectations; why would female Te / Fi be more *drawn* to learn, or are they just better learners in this context?
    Perhaps they are better learners. Or they might realize early that having these skills makes life a bit easier. I'm not sure if I am drawn to learn them specifically or if its more advantageous to know these expectations and how to work with them best. On the other hand, if I feel they are ridiculous expectations, I'm very willing to ignore them.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  4. #244
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Perhaps they are better learners. Or they might realize early that having these skills makes life a bit easier. I'm not sure if I am drawn to learn them specifically or if its more advantageous to know these expectations and how to work with them best. On the other hand, if I feel they are ridiculous expectations, I'm very willing to ignore them.
    The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?

  5. #245
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?
    Depends on the female. For this one, it isn't.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #246
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    The desire for connection is also quite strong...is that likely to be stronger in a female?
    Generally, I think that is true but it's not true for me.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #247
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    Is it possible that some people who appear as INTJs are actually INFPs in disguise? On a website I can't locate right now, I read that INFPs often put on INTJ masks to function more effectively in society, or something like that.

  8. #248
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan of Beans View Post
    Is it possible that some people who appear as INTJs are actually INFPs in disguise? On a website I can't locate right now, I read that INFPs often put on INTJ masks to function more effectively in society, or something like that.
    INFPs, especially males, can often appear to be more INTP or INTJ. The real difference is that the INFP can end up responding even more harshly than an INTJ ever would, due to inferior Te. The character Harrison Ford plays in "Cowboys and Aliens" (the power-hungry rancher) feels like of like this sort of INFP: he seems to be thinking in terms of Te, but he's totally driven by emotion.

    Not all NFPs come across as unicorns and rainbows.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #249
    across the universe Olm the Water King's Avatar
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    Hmm. Interesting. But perhaps that's not exactly what I had in mind.

    I'll try to find the website...

  10. #250
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan of Beans View Post
    Hmm. Interesting. But perhaps that's not exactly what I had in mind.

    I'll try to find the website...
    Any luck?

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