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  1. #171
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No, it comes from the combination of functions. Ni makes us feel certain of the undesirable outcome, once we see a preponderance of evidence.
    I wish I had the gift of Ni. As an enneagram 6, I do the same thing, of trying to predict the future to prevent bad outcomes. I just don't have a good sense of certainty about it, unless I have a hell of a lot of evidence, or unless I've been burnt badly enough either in the past or by proxy to just not care anymore.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    How is deposing others not also a positioning of self? The troller places higher automatically when the trollee is rendered lower. I'm assuming that trolling or otherwise scoring points creates a ranking. Why after all when TPs are playing nice with FJs in argument are they careful to validate other points of view?
    Because they have valid points when it comes to arguing
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I wish I had the gift of Ni. As an enneagram 6, I do the same thing, of trying to predict the future to prevent bad outcomes. I just don't have a good sense of certainty about it, unless I have a hell of a lot of evidence, or unless I've been burnt badly enough either in the past or by proxy to just not care anymore.
    Bad is different to each person, so when an INTJ gets an inkling of a bad outcome, another person might not even care about it or they actually see a worse outcome. You hit the nail on the head, its all about fear...that drives bad outcomes...and we all fear different things. I dont fear being wrong, it sucks sometimes, but it doesnt drive the same fear in me as it would an INTJ. Though they seem to get stuck that everyone else is the same as them and judges others actions accordingly because they have a preponderance of evidence of an undesirable outcome. So while I may "see" what they say, its not what I care about. You also have people who can natually turn bad outcomes around and joke and laugh and have fun as well as the people who can become serious when needed and actually correct the bad outcome without even judging it as bad in the first place. I dont place much emphasis on 'bad" outcomes, more on what you do and how you handle them.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #174
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes. You are. Because you're a TJ, and that's what you guys are good at.
    Yar. But the assumption is based on projecting too! I'm imagining that Fe and Te share some qualities and thus, by slippery imagistic reasoning, that displayed positioning means something for someone judging an environment in Fe terms. But...

    Maybe there is no ranking, just a levelling?
    Yes, this appears to be the ideology. It seems an unusual brand of humility that leads someone to create such a leveling though. Presumably, as Poki mentions, having some valid point in an argument, and therefore having a right to argue, is the ideal version of community discourse and relationship.

    Naturally, of course, if a person lacks some valid point, and yet continue to pontificate or emote....

    I'm sure it's materially unlikely that any person would use such a scheme of rights and advantages to afford themselves measures of security, like say a group of TPs forming cliques and congratulating themselves on their skillzors.........

    I have no idea. Why should it pay off in "good feeling"? I tend to assume the rituals of Fe have evolved to stop us maiming/killing each other and that's the only purpose they serve. I could be wrong about that.
    A sense of "all's right with the world" creates no satisfaction? Projecting once again, I'm under the impression that Fe, like any judgment function, is substantially dictatorial within a person--it's hard work ignoring your own sense of imbalance when the relevant realm is out of order.

    I don't follow.
    Dumb joke made in a hurry.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #175
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I guess you missed the part where I already said that...
    I saw where you wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Inferior Fe is not Fe. That's like saying a thing and its opposite are the same. They are not.
    Which is why I answered that inf Fe and Fe are not opposites. I agree on Fe vs. Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ISeems like you are either contradicting yourself or else what you are observing is not, in fact, inferior Fe. Or else you have a bunch of the world's most well-adjusted INTPs, who nevertheless, manage to get on your tits because they don't share your views about who deserves credit.
    The INTPs I work with are rather well-adjusted and professional, as are the INTJs. The discussions about authorship rarely contain much animosity, and show just the tip of the inf Fe iceberg, mainly to illustrate its presence and the unconscious/subconcious nature of its use. I have seen it rear its head in much uglier ways on other topics, leading to behavior that is not always professional. It seems to manifest as a sense of personal offense, not in the Fi sense of having some fundamental personal value crossed, but in the sense of feeling the other person did not do things "the right way", didn't give the necessary people their due (Si-Fe at work). Te, wielded quite consciously and skillfully by an INTJ as an auxiliary, dispenses handily with this reflexive Fe attitude, leaving the INTP feeling more offended, and the INTJ wondering what all the fuss is about.

    From the INTJ perspective, the idea of professional credit relates not so much to politics, and even less to greed/stinginess, than to accuracy. Who actually did what, or calling a spade a spade. I am willing to override this in practice for expediency, but will not pretend the reality of the situation is any different than it is.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #176
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Yar. But the assumption is based on projecting too! I'm imagining that Fe and Te share some qualities and thus, by slippery imagistic reasoning, that displayed positioning means something for someone judging an environment in Fe terms. But...

    Yes, this appears to be the ideology. It seems an unusual brand of humility that leads someone to create such a leveling though.
    We are a lot like Jesus, tbf. Only one letter in it.
    I'm sure it's materially unlikely that any person would use such a scheme of rights and advantages to afford themselves measures of security, like say a group of TPs forming cliques and congratulating themselves on their skillzors.........
    You don't seem to be able to comprehend that people can be motivated by considerations beyond accruing some kind of imaginary power or prestige...

    It's interesting that you use the word "security", which would never occur to me (or probably most INTPs). It comes back to the INTJ drive for mastery being an expression of profound insecurity / fear of inadequacy.
    Because you guys see everything as a play for power, you react as if a challenge is someone trying to "steal your thunder". Stop imagining you're Thor, and you stop imagining every challenger is Loki.

    The reason INTPs are so comfortable challenging others and striding oblivious through political minefields, is because they don't give a shit about political capital (their own or anyone else's). Sometimes it accrues in spite of this nonchalence (as a result of boldness /integrity /skill), but they will happily gamble with it wantonly, because they still don't give a shit about it (at least, not for its own sake). Easy come, easy go. The cliques that form are a way to vent frustration with the inadequacies of the broader group rather than an exercise in building anyone up. Being frustrated by a system's inadequacies is a major theme for us. Being critical is in our DNA. We are less successful at translating that understanding of a system's flaws into a better system. Partly because we lose interest in a thing once we understand it completely.

    A sense of "all's right with the world" creates no satisfaction? Projecting once again, I'm under the impression that Fe, like any judgment function, is substantially dictatorial within a person--it's hard work ignoring your own sense of imbalance when the relevant realm is out of order.
    If you insist on looking at everything through the prism of Te you are never going to get anywhere with the other functions. If you can't do otherwise, then at least consider the possibility that you have considerable blind spots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The INTPs I work with are rather well-adjusted and professional, as are the INTJs. The discussions about authorship rarely contain much animosity, and show just the tip of the inf Fe iceberg, mainly to illustrate its presence and the unconscious/subconcious nature of its use.
    I don't think you've illustrated anything of the kind. You've just made a rather blinkered judgement. If it were leaking out unconsciously, it wouldn't have anything approaching "well-adjusted" expression. Only functions available to consciousness are differentiated and well-adjusted. If anything, inferior Fe might manifest as a desire to exclude others from credit on the paper. Oh wait... isn't that what you were trying to do...?
    I have seen it rear its head in much uglier ways on other topics, leading to behavior that is not always professional. It seems to manifest as a sense of personal offense, not in the Fi sense of having some fundamental personal value crossed, but in the sense of feeling the other person did not do things "the right way", didn't give the necessary people their due (Si-Fe at work).
    It seems, to you. It's really rather ridiculous to use your imputed ideas of what someone else is feeling (kinda the definition of projection) as "evidence" of function usage. And you, a scientist too. *slow head shake*

    From the INTJ perspective, the idea of professional credit relates not so much to politics, and even less to greed/stinginess, than to accuracy. Who actually did what, or calling a spade a spade. I am willing to override this in practice for expediency, but will not pretend the reality of the situation is any different than it is.
    Again, instead of a more nuanced understanding of the subjective nature of the value of an individual's contribution, you just dismiss every other view with the insistance that your's is the only one that accords with "reality". Yes, very Te. This is guaranteed to piss an INTP off.

    Many INTPs have a profound sense of justice which derives from their own values and not from the environment (Fi). They are oftentimes accustomed to being stomped on by overweening jerks (frequently Te-users) so it's possible that their empathy for the person you wish to dismiss/discredit is activated and that is the reason for their defence. (Fi).

    Fe would instead motivate them to seek an external authority or else consensus, to determine who "rightly deserves" credit. Actually, they seem to be using Fi. Perhaps you can't see that because you don't have any. Ironically, the way you back down "for expediency" and cow tow to a belief you do not personally hold can be seen as another unhealthy manifestation of Fe - but it's yours, not theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  7. #177
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's interesting that you use the word "security", which would never occur to me (or probably most INTPs). It comes back to the INTJ drive for mastery being an expression of profound insecurity / fear of inadequacy.
    This seems more characteristic of enneagram 5, especially sp variants, than INTJ specifically. Many INTJs are 5 sp, so there is overlap. Many INTP are 5 as well. In fact, some of these behaviors are more readily explained by enneagram than MBTI. INTJ 5 will behave differently from 8, 1, or others. Similarly for different INTP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Because you guys see everything as a play for power, you react as if a challenge is someone trying to "steal your thunder". Stop imagining you're Thor, and you stop imagining every challenger is Loki.

    The reason INTPs are so comfortable challenging others and striding oblivious through political minefields, is because they don't give a shit about political capital (their own or anyone else's). Sometimes it accrues in spite of this nonchalence (as a result of boldness /integrity /skill), but they will happily gamble with it wantonly, because they still don't give a shit about it (at least, not for its own sake). Easy come, easy go.
    We don't take things nearly as personally as all this. If we play for power, it is only because of what we can do with that power. Same with political capital. If we can't use it for something, there is no point in bothering about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If you insist on looking at everything through the prism of Te you are never going to get anywhere with the other functions. If you can't do otherwise, then at least consider the possibility that you have considerable blind spots.
    This much is correct, as I have mentioned in several threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't think you've illustrated anything of the kind. You've just made a rather blinkered judgement. If it were leaking out unconsciously, it wouldn't have anything approaching "well-adjusted" expression. Only functions available to consciousness are differentiated and well-adjusted. If anything, inferior Fe might manifest as a desire to exclude others from credit on the paper. Oh wait... isn't that what you were trying to do...?
    It seems, to you. It's really rather ridiculous to use your imputed ideas of what someone else is feeling (kinda the definition of projection) as "evidence" of function usage.
    A person need not be perfect to be well-adjusted. This just means that they will have fewer and more minor uncontrolled inferior expressions, and be better able to override them. They will still have them, and for INTP, they often look like what I described. Less well-adjusted people will allow their inferior expressions to get the better of them more often. I know one or two of those as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Many INTPs have a profound sense of justice which derives from their own values and not from the environment (Fi). They are oftentimes accustomed to being stomped on by overweening jerks (frequently Te-users) so it's possible that their empathy for the person you wish to dismiss/discredit is activated and that is the reason for their defence. (Fi).

    Fe would instead motivate them to seek an external authority or else consensus, to determine who "rightly deserves" credit. Actually, they seem to be using Fi. Perhaps you can't see that because you don't have any. Ironically, the way you back down "for expediency" and cow tow to a belief you do not personally hold can be seen as another unhealthy manifestation of Fe - but it's yours, not theirs.
    This is backwards. Yes, the highlighted is characteristic of Fi, but as such it is typical of INTJs and other TJs, not INTPs. It was my own motivation in arguing for the inclusion of the author I mentioned several posts ago. ( I'm no expert in Fi, but my Fe is far, far worse. ) The INTPs I work with will indeed reference an external standard (Fe): what is customary for the particular journal, conference, or type of work; what is usually done in our organization. They will suggest asking the opinion of other colleagues or a mentor/supervisor. I generally go along with this, as a reality/sanity check.

    As you often do, you are using loaded words to try to make my comment fit your argument. You are also overlooking the distinction between actions and principles. As my original comment stated, I do not back down on beliefs, but sometimes compromise on actions. I will keep calling that spade a spade. If my boss or even a colleague, however, insists that we consider it artwork for the lobby, I might choose to go along out of expediency. This has nothing to do with the social harmony of Fe. I do not care about maintaining good relations with colleagues or even the boss for its own sake, but rather because if I do, I can get more accomplished. It might look like I am compromising my principles, but what I am in fact doing is giving one principle precedence over another. In this case something Ni-Te-like over something more Fi-like. How willing I am to compromise on what action is taken depends significantly on the situation.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #178
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    We are a lot like Jesus, tbf. Only one letter in it.
    You don't seem to be able to comprehend that people can be motivated by considerations beyond accruing some kind of imaginary power or prestige...

    It's interesting that you use the word "security", which would never occur to me (or probably most INTPs). It comes back to the INTJ drive for mastery being an expression of profound insecurity / fear of inadequacy.
    Because you guys see everything as a play for power, you react as if a challenge is someone trying to "steal your thunder". Stop imagining you're Thor, and you stop imagining every challenger is Loki.
    Actually, I'm just using words that I'm supposing are supposed to go with inferior considerations. Inferior Se for instance manifests not rarely as exaggerated concerns for physical security. And inferior Fe doesn't manifest as exaggerated concern for intellectual security? As in, for example, WE SO DON'T CARE ABOUT EMO! WE'RE TEH ANTi-EMO! And then getting together in groups for a puerile togetherness of how un-emo we all are?

    If I may, "If you aren't aware of it, that's not surprising. I suppose that's what makes these threads so valuable..."

    The reason INTPs are so comfortable challenging others and striding oblivious through political minefields, is because they don't give a shit about political capital (their own or anyone else's). Sometimes it accrues in spite of this nonchalence (as a result of boldness /integrity /skill), but they will happily gamble with it wantonly, because they still don't give a shit about it (at least, not for its own sake). Easy come, easy go. The cliques that form are a way to vent frustration with the inadequacies of the broader group rather than an exercise in building anyone up. Being frustrated by a system's inadequacies is a major theme for us. Being critical is in our DNA. We are less successful at translating that understanding of a system's flaws into a better system. Partly because we lose interest in a thing once we understand it completely.
    Probably all true. Except maybe "don't give a shit" might perhaps be "don't know how to give a shit"... Or perhaps "Feel undermined by sometimes having to give a shit". Ironically thereby giving a shit. A reverse shit of sorts, an anti-voiding where shit is sucked up into the person. Leading perhaps to the sometimes heard suggestion that INTPs are full of concern for the well being of others.

    I'm kind of surprised you're unwilling to admit to how much INTPs do bend to social winds. From the outside it seems clear that you guys do adhere to weirdly ritualistic interpersonal norms. To admit it would release much of its power.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Te, wielded quite consciously and skillfully by an INTJ as an auxiliary, dispenses handily with this reflexive Fe attitude, leaving the INTP feeling more offended, and the INTJ wondering what all the fuss is about.
    I have yet to experience this from Te, not even an ISTJ. I have yet to be offended by an IxTJ. You sure your dealing with TP? Or are you possibly just feeling the fact that you offended him good and are just patting yourself on the back?

    The INTPs I know dont care about politics crap. I have even known one who hung a shower curtain on his cube just for shits and giggles among other things that really irritated the crap out of the manager 2 levels up. He also used to do things he shouldnt have done, but needed to be done because of the politics crap that people have to wade through to get things done in a heavy Te environment. And then he started to become bitter because the hand of the law came down when what he did helped and advanced things. Curious if that would be inferior Fe and leads to the bitterness.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #180
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Fine.

    Imma assume for a moment that I don't know what Fe is. Intellectually I'd like to call it a cognitive approach centered on deliberating over and developing the mechanisms of social and socially expressed value. Where that even an adequate approximation, I still wouldn't know what Fe feels like. Thus, when I see a person I've typed as TP displaying some kind of reaction to some kind of stimulus, I don't actually know if I'm witnessing feeling and evaluation. But I see them doing something. INTPs display concern and angst in my presence. They are watchful. They will sometimes display a seeming anger of sorts. One or two notable times I've discussed some issue with an INTP and near the end of the discussion I've attempted to back up and state the plan or decision that has been accepted. This causes negative display. It looks for all the world like they're offended, as if by attempting to bluntly reinforce the decision or plan I am questioning their resolve. You freaks are touch-eeeeee.

    Most of the rest of the time though, in the worlds I move in, it's been the one or two INTPs I've met who've been the most genuinely pleasant of interlocutors. The interest in objectivity, the willingness to discuss, the humour.... they've all been welcome.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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