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Thread: Common INTJ Issues

  1. #161
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Does this happen irl? I would be really annoyed at that person for that. Do you have a bad history or something? I see that as a huge problem.
    The sample conversation was a bit stylized to illustrate the concept, but similar discussions do happen. Once I defended listing someone as an author (to another INFJ author), because the person had done a significant amount of the measurements presented. Other times, I declined to include people based on limited contribution. In reality, I received little disagreement, but I have heard more contentious discussions of authorship.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    The only time an INTJ cares about credit is when its given to someone else and he doesnt think its deserved. The only time an INTP cares about credit is when its just one of those rules that people follow(I really have no clue about this one, I am sure INTJs will agree as I have done nothing but restate what has been stated by them.)
    Most INTJs I know want to give credit where credit is due, whether to themselves, or especially to others. The sticking point usually comes because our standard for this is different from that of others'. They often fail to realize that we hold ourselves to that standard, too, and as you mention will decline credit we have not earned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Inferior Fe is not Fe. That's like saying a thing and its opposite are the same. They are not. 1 and -1 are not equivalent. Conscious is not Unconscious. Light is not shadow. Cold is not Hot. Love is not Hate. These things are related in complex ways. But they are not the same. Right is not wrong. Either I'm right or you're right. We can't both be right, we are saying fundamentally different things. If you still can't see that I don't know what to tell you. I only know that my understanding is closer to Jung's meaning of "inferior".
    Inferior Fe is not the opposite of Fe. If anything, Ti is. One's inferior is more like a dangerous tool in the hands of an clumsy, untutored, and ignorant user.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I wasn't being serious! I suck at professional courtesies and protocols. I never do anything the same way twice. I never, ever follow templates, I get into trouble for this stuff often. If it's something Coriolis' "INTPs" obsess over, it's probably BECAUSE they lack confidence in understanding the "unwritten rules" and so they try to make them explicit, to figure out their internal logic (assuming there is one, which is the assumption Ti always makes) and if you violate that logic, Ti will notice and will get disturbed, because it thinks it understood the game and you just went ahead and changed the rules. To think the INTP cares about protocol, for protocol's sake is to superficially misread the situation.
    Far from obsessing over professional protocols, the INTPs I know generally take them for granted. They are a complete non-issue until someone violates one. Even then, it is often quickly resolved based on seniority/leadership. Real arguments don't happen too often, but when they do, they play out as I illustrated, and are a good example of inf Fe at work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    However, it's clear that Coriolis perceives some kind of value in being listed on a paper. Some kind of political capital. INTJs are much more interested in power play. INTPs generally don't care about that kind of maneuvering and pettiness. We're not gonna get our panties bunched up because "x's contribution was minimal". It's more binary to us, because we actually CARE LESS. This should be blindingly obvious to anyone reading the anecdote. I let people steal credit for my ideas sometimes, just because I only really care about the idea. I don't care for accolades.
    Most supervisors perceive some value in having publications. In academia, they are required for tenure; there and elsewhere they are used in promotion decisions. INTJs understand that keeping their job or getting a better position are often useful in accomplishing their goals, both personal and professional. There is also the utility of letting others in the field know who is doing a particular activity, so those with questions or wanting to collaborate can contact the right person. There is political capital in this, but it also helps effectiveness. When it comes to getting an idea accepted or implemented, though, I agree with you. I don't care about credit, as long as it gets done. (A few times I actually got something done by passing it off as the idea of other people - with their complicity.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #162
    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
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    @Salomé

    What you are describing and are considering wrong in my analysis (which probably is true) are the kinks of my general lines that I described. And yes, I get that you want me to relate them properly. However, those things however important to you, are *exactly* the topic I want to show you by comparing it to INTJs (and the interacting conflict it gives between you two). That was the original topic. And it is an awesome demonstration of it. Your Ti wants things riddled out properly into fine detail and argues until it is riddled out. Meanwhile the Te-crowd looks at it, the intjs probably see the riddling out that could be done (I just see the general lines really, and often dont realise until I take a closer look that there is more to tweak), understands the concept and moves on to the next part of that conversation in order to get to the point. For you however, it seems important that the first part is logically perfect, before you can move on to the next part. Which in turn gives an INTJ the head ache they experience when a) being told that they are wrong and b) being told to go over the same sequence over and over again.

    I am not saying that you are wrong. In fact, you are likely very right as this is something you've finetuned (I'm saying likely here coz my understanding of Ti is...rudimentary at best). I'm merely saying that others do not need as deep a grasp, or as much refinement when looking at something in order to grasp the general gist of it, or in order to communicate a concept to someone else, to then move on to what *they* consider the main course of that conversation.

    Iow, you are being too thorough and have too high a standards, and are focused on the 'wrong' part of the conversation for INTJs (and Te-users in general probably). I'm not saying you should change your priorities, and what you consider to be vital (god knows I cant with Fi, when it comes to Fe-users). But it might help with the misunderstandings and the frustration and considering eachother moronic for not seeing this shit when keeping in mind that this to them just...aint that important. And vice versa, INTJs might want to keep in mind that their goal just aint that important to you in the discussion. From the Te-side of things however..it does make driving a point home rather...frustrating at times, just so ya know

    In a way, this situation reminds me of my math teacher first demanding that I show my work and when I get my paper back having red all over my work, but acknowledging that the result, the number I wanted to write down in the first place without showing all the work, is correct.

    However..I think the solution in this (and perhaps you'll disagree, so feel free to reject it) is that...with a bit of benefit of the doubt from your side, I can explain the rudimentary trajectory to you, with my point. Then watch you go nuts on riddling it all out, in turn teaching me how to actually do something like that (coz it most certainly comes in handy and it surely is interesting), and get a more crystallised and clear understanding of what I just said. I'm not sure though..can you judge the actual goal of the conversation before you've riddled stuff out? Can you state up front that you agree with the general outline, just not the journey there? I can, occasionally with Fi, though I do feel a burning desire to put in 'ifs' and 'buts'. If you could state upfront that you agree in general, that would save the Te-user a lot of head ache. If you do need to work yourself there, patience will be the name of the game, I guess.
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  3. #163
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    @Salomé From the Te-side of things however..it does make driving a point home rather...frustrating at times, just so ya know
    Of course...because your not really driving the point home to the INTP. Its a frustration based on the lack of Te's ability to get the point across.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  4. #164
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, at least your motives are clear.
    Are they? Or instead is it your motives which have been made transparent?
    / "domination, elimination, and eventual sexual conquest"
    You really grabbed that bait and ran with it, eh?

    The sad thing is, if I just softened towards you a little, I'd have you eating out of my hand.
    But frustratingly for you, I have no time for people who are confused about whether they want to crush me or fuck me (or both):

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Your delusions are sexy.

    you're just being a nitpicky Ti user with shitty Fe.

    Yes, your response was unimpressive.

    you don't like how INTJs prefer them another way

    I'm sure some would have been more willing to accept it/let it slide than others.
    You will even directly contradict yourself just so you can insult me further:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You were spot on in everything you were saying above here, and (mostly) here.
    And yet:
    Frankly, I think you confuse your manifestation of Fe with all INTPs' manifestation of Fe.
    rejection is only one of the manifestations of the inferior.
    In case it were not obvious, your delusions are NOT sexy.

    My rejection of you is not related to my being in any way your inferior. Secretly you know this and it bugs the shit out of you.

    *eats apple*
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #165
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    What you are describing and are considering wrong in my analysis (which probably is true) are the kinks of my general lines that I described.
    No. I've done my best and have failed to communicate to you how your understanding is flawed. Now I'm getting bored because I don't like repeating myself.
    And yes, I get that you want me to relate them properly.
    You dont get it though. And you don't get us, that much is crystal. I have been showing you your mistake, you want to continue making it, that's up to you. You're in good company, most people make this mistake.

    However, those things however important to you, are *exactly* the topic I want to show you by comparing it to INTJs (and the interacting conflict it gives between you two). That was the original topic. And it is an awesome demonstration of it. Your Ti wants things riddled out properly into fine detail and argues until it is riddled out.
    No. These are not fine details. These are fundamental constructs. Either something is a manifestation of Si/Fe or it is not. You are diagnosing conflicting function usage as the core of the problem, so it's not a fine detail, it's the crux of your argument. You are continuing to assert the self-same argument, by calling our debate an "awesome demonstration" of your previous point. If it's a demonstration of anything, it's your inability to follow a line of thought through to its logical conclusions.. Because you misunderstand the theory, you misattribute motives and misread behaviours. This is a fundamental flaw in your understanding which invalidates your point and damages your ability to relate to INTPs. This is why sound theory / reasoning is so important. Because it's too easy to come up with "observations" that support any theory / bias you decide to adopt. (See Forer effect.) It's bigger than the INTJ vs INTP conflict - we hate each other, who cares? And it's bigger than your application to INTPs. My focus is on the skeleton of the theory. The architecture of the idea. I'm exclusively interested in a consistent and sound framework which makes sense. Since you don't have one, any argument you make is going to be flawed and I'll just dismiss it. You can continue to misread this as an obsession with Si/Fe "protocol" or whatever wildly inappropriate terms you want to dream up. You'd just be more wrong. That's ok, your Ti is weak, I get it.

    The only way you might be able to get anywhere here, would be if you could argue from a theoretical framework and show how one thing implies another. You are arguing from your gut and from your experience and from a parroted rather than considered interpretation of the functions INTPs "use".
    Because this jives neither with an accurate/consistent understanding of theory, nor with my own personal experience, nor with my observations of other INTPs, I am never going to agree with you.

    You are keen for us to agree because you are very much interested in reconciliation. It's of no consequence to me whether we agree or not because there are zero implications resting on it and investment in a common and harmonious interpretation is an obstacle to truth. This is the core T/F conflict in a nutshell. (And it's not resolvable. And that's ok. )
    I am not saying that you are wrong. In fact, you are likely very right as this is something you've finetuned (I'm saying likely here coz my understanding of Ti is...rudimentary at best). I'm merely saying that others do not need as deep a grasp, or as much refinement when looking at something in order to grasp the general gist of it, or in order to communicate a concept to someone else, to then move on to what *they* consider the main course of that conversation.
    You only think you don't need it because you don't get it. If you got it, you'd know that you need it. For you, it's an unknown unknown. For me, it's a given.

    Iow, you are being too thorough and have too high a standards,
    Lol. "You are being too right." Impossible.
    You are focused on the 'wrong' part of the conversation for INTJs (and Te-users in general probably). I'm not saying you should change your priorities, and what you consider to be vital (god knows I cant with Fi, when it comes to Fe-users). But it might help with the misunderstandings and the frustration and considering eachother moronic for not seeing this shit when keeping in mind that this to them just...aint that important.
    Being right may not be important to you, but I assure you it's VERY important to an INTJ. My conflicts with them are all about the fact that they hate to be told they are wrong about anything (despite consistently doing this to others). And I do it without any kind of Fe/Fi face-saving to soften the blow. Believe me, I understand the dynamic perfectly. The frustration isn't mine. More often than not, I'm amused.
    And vice versa, INTJs might want to keep in mind that their goal just aint that important to you in the discussion. From the Te-side of things however..it does make driving a point home rather...frustrating at times, just so ya know
    Oh, yes. I'm quite aware of their frustration. Te seeks to impose itself on its environment. Ti simply resists and slowly shakes its head. It is this act of resistance that causes frustration in the Te user. If we were Fe users, we would relent in order to maintain peaceful relations. We would seek out common ground. We don't do that, because we're not.

    In a way, this situation reminds me of my math teacher first demanding that I show my work and when I get my paper back having red all over my work, but acknowledging that the result, the number I wanted to write down in the first place without showing all the work, is correct.
    Except that it's the opposite. Both your answer and your working are incorrect, and one as an inevitable result of the other.

    However..I think the solution in this (and perhaps you'll disagree, so feel free to reject it) is that...with a bit of benefit of the doubt from your side, I can explain the rudimentary trajectory to you, with my point. Then watch you go nuts on riddling it all out, in turn teaching me how to actually do something like that (coz it most certainly comes in handy and it surely is interesting), and get a more crystallised and clear understanding of what I just said.
    That doesnt sound like fun to me. Fixing other people's mistakes is kind of a compulsion (up to a point) not my idea of a good time.

    I'm not sure though..can you judge the actual goal of the conversation before you've riddled stuff out? Can you state up front that you agree with the general outline, just not the journey there?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  6. #166
    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
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    Lol...you must have a strong compulsion to keep doing what you do not enjoy

    It is quite idealistic of you to keep trying with such a lousy student in Ti. Moreso coz I guess my Fi agenda takes my priority: understanding where you are coming from (and where INTJs are coming from) and building a bridge. That, to me, is important yes. 'Learning Ti' is of secondary consequence, but I can see the potential for it, if I keep arguing with you. I'm only not too sure that I ehm..wouldn't piss you off before I can actually grasp enough basics to make the progress you'd like me to make (I feel like Im on a high school level, disappointing a college professor, basically). And I guess, similarly, I'm trying to spur you to see things just a tiny bit my way, and perhaps discover as you so aptly put it 'If you got it, you'd know that you need it'. Or at least, thats how I feel about this, as it is equally important to me as your need for things to be correct. It is your choice (as it is mine with Ti) of course whether or not that might be useful to you, I guess

    Fwiw, I appreciate that you did your best to explain things to me. And it wasnt completely wasted on me, it is just that it has a different priority level to me than it does to you. Rest assured that this convo, at least to me, was very illuminating.
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  7. #167
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    @Amargith, I think one of the main things is that your continuing to cite cognitive functions/function order will fall flat if someone doesn't fully buy into the foundation and framework of some of the main tenets of the theory. So, speaking of cog. functions as they are presented in countless threads or websites or by 'experts' isn't going to mean a whole lot if a person doesn't accept all of that down to the foundation and also agree with the applicability of all of it and how it is used for analysis.

    Only saying this because there are many people I interact with daily who don't fit all of the theory as it's often touted on the forum, so using myself as an example, I try not to bring cog. functions into anything when I'm describing myself in various threads or irl.
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  8. #168
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    @Amargith If we must agree, we can agree to have different priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Inferior Fe is not the opposite of Fe. If anything, Ti is.
    I guess you missed the part where I already said that...
    That's the reason those functions do not coexist well in the same character. This would be common sense, even if Jung hadn't spelled it out.
    I said to suggest Fe and inf Fe are equivalent is like making those things equivalent. Love and hate is a good example. They are not opposites, and can be inspired by the same event - one is destructive, the other constructive, and sometimes one is the unconscious manifestation of the other.

    Far from obsessing over professional protocols, the INTPs I know generally take them for granted. They are a complete non-issue until someone violates one. Even then, it is often quickly resolved based on seniority/leadership. Real arguments don't happen too often, but when they do, they play out as I illustrated, and are a good example of inf Fe at work.
    How can they be if:
    One's inferior is more like a dangerous tool in the hands of an clumsy, untutored, and ignorant user.
    ???
    Seems like you are either contradicting yourself or else what you are observing is not, in fact, inferior Fe. Or else you have a bunch of the world's most well-adjusted INTPs, who nevertheless, manage to get on your tits because they don't share your views about who deserves credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Am I wrong in thinking you're sticking in the mud on what constitutes politics? That there's some kind of flow over there (presumably--I wouldn't know) and that allegiances change means there isn't some kind of social order? Or, to put it another way, because they don't stick their protocols sufficiently in the mud themselves, their attachment to social evaluation can't constitute a social order in its own right?
    I think we are wandering into "missing the point" territory. Anywhere you have more than one isolated individual, you are going to have some kind of "social order" or flow. The type of social order you arrive at will be very different with a bunch of Fe-doms than with a bunch of Ti-doms.

    See, now, this kind of suggest you'e being disingenuous. Or that you think "meaningful, exploitable social capital" means "good and worthy social capital". INTPs troll. They position themselves. The whole schtick of skewering social norms and mocking another person's personal ranking is INTP crack.
    Are you fond of tautologies?
    INTP trolling is not about positioning themselves. It's usually about deposing others. You are observing a behaviour and imputing a universal motive.
    Which is very Fe of you.

    Only if Jung never said anything about inferior functions.
    Jung didn't believe in INTJs. Neither do I. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  9. #169
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Are you fond of tautologies?
    Probably. They make the Te go round.

    INTP trolling is not about positioning themselves. It's usually about deposing others. You are observing a behaviour and imputing a universal motive.
    Which is very Fe of you.
    How is deposing others not also a positioning of self? The troller places higher automatically when the trollee is rendered lower. I'm assuming that trolling or otherwise scoring points creates a ranking. Why after all when TPs are playing nice with FJs in argument are they careful to validate other points of view?

    I have of course no direct experience with any inner effect of Fe, but if it implies or impels a social ordering and pays off in good feeling when social ordering is achieved, how do Fe people ever avoid creating ranks and circles of membership?



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    1. ENFPs
    2. hostile sexuality
    1+2=3. INTPs.
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  10. #170
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    How is deposing others not also a positioning of self? The troller places higher automatically when the trollee is rendered lower. I'm assuming that trolling or otherwise scoring points creates a ranking.
    Yes. You are. Because you're a TJ, and that's what you guys are good at.
    Maybe there is no ranking, just a levelling?

    Actually, @INTPc they do (or used to) have this annual awards thing. Most Irritating Poster. Biggest Drama Queen. Most desired Hook-up. Person you most want to die in a fire. That kind of thing.
    It's a weird blend of parody and sincerity. Like most things INTP, one can rarely be certain which is which.

    I have of course no direct experience with any inner effect of Fe, but if it implies or impels a social ordering and pays off in good feeling when social ordering is achieved, how do Fe people ever avoid creating ranks and circles of membership?
    I have no idea. Why should it pay off in "good feeling"? I tend to assume the rituals of Fe have evolved to stop us maiming/killing each other and that's the only purpose they serve. I could be wrong about that.

    INTJ issues
    1. ENFPs
    2. hostile sexuality
    1+2=3. INTPs.
    I don't follow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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