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Thread: Common INTJ Issues

  1. #151
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The impulse is much stronger in (unbalanced/young) male INTJs, anyway, as I have already said. Sexuality is a recurring problem for them. They like to think they are 'above' the baser instincts that drive the seething masses, (how many INTJs males claim to be asexual?) but find that they are not, and this is a source of great frustration, because it's the one area where their drive for self-sufficiency and mastery is completely thwarted. They can't command their environment to meet their needs and tend to lack the charm or humility to seduce, so they do the sour- grapes thing ("didn't want it anyway"/"I'm a pervert"), and the repressed drive is distorted into something darkly hostile and profane. It's the flip side of sublimation. Or the slightly better adjusted ones resort to something like PUA - they are seduced by the idea that they can gain mastery of this unfathomable realm through "knowledge" and strategy - which is simply slipping back into their comfort zone. Which of course, leads to failure and more frustration.
    PROTOCOL!

    All the above is true, allowing a little for values embellishment, but that there is some embellishment via value judgment indicates there's a protocol. In particular as summed up in darkly hostile and profane. The hostility is there, definitely. But I believe it to be pricked quite easily. I don't know for sure, but the negativity that goes with sexuality is about as stubborn as a a balloon. It pops the same way all anger does when confronted with opportunity to be expressed. The live situation changes it. There may be some persistent negativity that stays around warping expression, but I'll go ahead and imagine it is less common than simple urgency.

    Compare and contrast the protocols of a place like INTJforum, with INTPCentral...
    One uses exaggerated authority the other uses perverted feeling?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #152
    Unapologetic being Array Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    For example, as an INTJ my inferior is Se, but as a scientist I would be fairly useless if I could not make consistent and reliable measurements of concrete observables in the real world. We will always be better at our dominant and aux, but can learn to use the others, much as we use our non-preferred hand to good effect.
    Can you give an example of INTJ's inferior manifesting? I can't even remember seeing this in INFJ's actually. What happens?
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  3. #153
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The INTJ colleagues are more likely not to bother with it, to leave someone out, or to object outright when someone is included by protocol when their contribution was minimal.
    LMAO at the bolded. I dont know nor do I care....BUT..."he" sure the hell is not getting credit.

    The only time I personally care whether credit is given or not is if someone directly gives me credit for someone elses work. I dont like that and will make sure the person who deserves the credit gets it. The only time an INTJ cares about credit is when its given to someone else and he doesnt think its deserved. The only time an INTP cares about credit is when its just one of those rules that people follow(I really have no clue about this one, I am sure INTJs will agree as I have done nothing but restate what has been stated by them.)


    Also, its funny when other people think they know what another is thinking, thats "projection" to the extreme and usually involves the "inverse" as if everything is black and white.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Since INTJs tend to be really self-reliant and not exactly focused on relationships with others, they tend to not care about those concepts. The whole group dynamic is often a mystery to them, until it gets in their way and they sit down to actually work out why it is getting in their way.
    I always get a kick out of people saying that INTJs dont understand group dynamics. What you said puts an INTJ a step ahead of an inferior Fe when it comes to actually interacting with group dynamics INTJs understand group dynamics as long as the group is similiar to themselves. Everything else is just stupid...though the will learn to deal with stupidity...LMAO (this is part of dealing with group dynamics outside of there own)
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  5. #155
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Why, coz I won't budge on this? You may know INTPs more..intimately, being one, but surely you too know that when you are that close to something, there are sides you will be blind to?
    I'm not blind to them. I went ahead and pointed them all out for you. You even agreed. You're just being foolishly stubborn. And what I'm doing isn't nit-picking. It's highlighting a fundamental misunderstanding. Inferior Fe is not Fe. That's like saying a thing and its opposite are the same. They are not. 1 and -1 are not equivalent. Conscious is not Unconscious. Light is not shadow. Cold is not Hot. Love is not Hate. These things are related in complex ways. But they are not the same. Right is not wrong. Either I'm right or you're right. We can't both be right, we are saying fundamentally different things. If you still can't see that I don't know what to tell you. I only know that my understanding is closer to Jung's meaning of "inferior".

    That said, I've already mentioned that I think the whole thing is speculative bullshit. But if you're going to spout bullshit, do please try to get it right. Do please try to make some kind of sense.

    The humility thing is a good example of that. It isn't something an INTJ even contemplates..not coz he is purposefully negligent but coz it just doesn't...occur to him to actually pay attention to something like that as it is the paper itself that matters to them. Te vs Fe. Credit is a form of currency that INTJs have to *learn* to appreciate.
    FFS, I wasn't being serious! I suck at professional courtesies and protocols. I never do anything the same way twice. I never, ever follow templates, I get into trouble for this stuff often. If it's something Coriolis' "INTPs" obsess over, it's probably BECAUSE they lack confidence in understanding the "unwritten rules" and so they try to make them explicit, to figure out their internal logic (assuming there is one, which is the assumption Ti always makes) and if you violate that logic, Ti will notice and will get disturbed, because it thinks it understood the game and you just went ahead and changed the rules. To think the INTP cares about protocol, for protocol's sake is to superficially misread the situation.
    Probably. I don't really care. We're all different.

    However, it's clear that Coriolis perceives some kind of value in being listed on a paper. Some kind of political capital. INTJs are much more interested in power play. INTPs generally don't care about that kind of maneuvering and pettiness. We're not gonna get our panties bunched up because "x's contribution was minimal". It's more binary to us, because we actually CARE LESS. This should be blindingly obvious to anyone reading the anecdote. I let people steal credit for my ideas sometimes, just because I only really care about the idea. I don't care for accolades.

    NTPs for that matter tend to be quite good at gauging who is gaining what from the social system and often deduct other peoples motivations from how they move within that social system, which perks they gain, which draw backs certain social behaviours within a group will have. And what power can be gained through it. And one of the major problems is that their conclusions as to the motives of Fe-users may be quite good as they too use that social system, but are often way off with Fi-users who do not pay attention to group dynamics usually, to get their way (though with time, we can sort of see the pattern and game the system, it still feels artificial in a way).
    Wrong. Doesn't apply to INTPs. We are socially oblivious and we really could care less about politics, unless we have a specific goal in mind - then we will treat it like a game, but we will get bored of it as soon as our ends are achieved.
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  6. #156
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    We are socially oblivious and we really could care less about politics, unless we have a specific goal in mind - then we will treat it like a game, but we will get bored of it as soon as our ends are achieved.
    This kind of contradicts what you described earlier of the social fabric over at INTPc. If it is chock full of groupings and and social biases, however inadequate or game-like, then they're politicing. They have factions and cliques and, god bless em, protocols of behavior, however whacked out.

    So if, as we do, INTJs have an overweening need to control the environment, INTPs have a need to assign value judgments to people and actions within it. Being uninspired by the inadequacy of this tendency is not a demonstration that it does not exist.
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  7. #157
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    This kind of contradicts what you described earlier of the social fabric over at INTPc. If it is chock full of groupings and and social biases, however inadequate or game-like, then they're politicing. They have factions and cliques and, god bless em, protocols of behavior, however whacked out.
    Not really. It's mostly about disrupting the status quo. Then that becomes the new status quo, which must be further disrupted. 90% of the chat is meta - about changing the way shit is done, yet shit never changes. Not because of any attachment to tradition, but because of apathy and a general inability to cooperate towards common goals. Or even to agree what those goals might be.

    It's not about gaining any kind of meaningful, exploitable social capital or status. There are those who do attempt this - almost always IxTJs or ENTPs.

    So if, as we do, INTJs have an overweening need to control the environment, INTPs have a need to assign value judgments to people and actions within it. Being uninspired by the inadequacy of this tendency is not a demonstration that it does not exist.
    Non sequitur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  8. #158
    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    This kind of contradicts what you described earlier of the social fabric over at INTPc. If it is chock full of groupings and and social biases, however inadequate or game-like, then they're politicing. They have factions and cliques and, god bless em, protocols of behavior, however whacked out.

    So if, as we do, INTJs have an overweening need to control the environment, INTPs have a need to assign value judgments to people and actions within it. Being uninspired by the inadequacy of this tendency is not a demonstration that it does not exist.
    Holy crap I couldnt handle that place. Had nothing to do with cliques, or factions, etc. as I see the same thing here. Its like they dig deeper into theory without connecting it to actual people. Its like a psychologist whos main interest is psychology and not actually helping someone. Of course I spent very little time there as I couldnt handle such a heavy NT presence(from what I hear it is just as much INTJ as INTP).
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  9. #159
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not really. It's mostly about disrupting the status quo. Then that becomes the new status quo, which must be further disrupted. 90% of the chat is meta - about changing the way shit is done, yet shit never changes. Not because of any attachment to tradition, but because of apathy and a general inability to cooperate towards common goals. Or even to agree what those goals might be.
    Am I wrong in thinking you're sticking in the mud on what constitutes politics? That there's some kind of flow over there (presumably--I wouldn't know) and that allegiances change means there isn't some kind of social order? Or, to put it another way, because they don't stick their protocols sufficiently in the mud themselves, their attachment to social evaluation can't constitute a social order in its own right?

    It's not about gaining any kind of meaningful, exploitable social capital or status.
    See, now, this kind of suggest you'e being disingenuous. Or that you think "meaningful, exploitable social capital" means "good and worthy social capital". INTPs troll. They position themselves. The whole schtick of skewering social norms and mocking another person's personal ranking is INTP crack.

    Fe harmony is not harmonious. It may be eventually if allowed full and adequate reign, but in the meantime a lot of leveling will take place. The FJs do it will aplomb (if they've practiced at all), and the TPs do it with mockery.

    Non sequitur.
    Only if Jung never said anything about inferior functions.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #160
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    omg, outcomes?

    That INTPs don't do Fe is proven by how they're not interested in outcomes?

    OMG

    What is it with Fe and people skipping out on being blamed?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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