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Thread: Common INTJ Issues

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    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I thought all INTP's have Fe.
    Hmm...I didn't think inferiors were watered down. I thought that they were kinda the negative side of people...and I also thought that they were the exact opposite of watered down.
    INTPs have/use Fe; some better than others. Inferior functions are not so much watered down as outside conscious control. It will affect us whether we like it or not. We can crowd it out through reliance on our dom/aux, but sometimes that just causes it to erupt in inopportune ways. As Zarathustra mentioned, we can learn to become more aware of it, which is at least half the battle in bringing it under our conscious control. For example, as an INTJ my inferior is Se, but as a scientist I would be fairly useless if I could not make consistent and reliable measurements of concrete observables in the real world. We will always be better at our dominant and aux, but can learn to use the others, much as we use our non-preferred hand to good effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    That it wasnt the traditional kind but the INTP kind was in fact was implied. My (Te?)bad, I guess. While INTP protocol is the very watered down version of an Fe-doms protocol, to an INTJ (and guys, correct me if Im wrong here) and for that matter to me (and I wager other Fi-users) it is still a social protocol. And feels rather alien to us. Considering that INTJs supposedly have an Fe-blindspot, that protocol held up by SiFe which not only is the watered down version, but also shows none of the skill level of an Fe-dom, lets be honest here (meaning less patience and more visceral reactions on the few things they do want their crude protocol on, ime), that thing is going to cause a never ending streak of misunderstandings and irritation, unless both parties give each other a little leeway and the benefit of the doubt, from what Ive seen.
    There is a great example of this, which I didn't identify as such until someone pointed it out (Uumlau? Z??). This is professional courtesies. There is a whole host of unwritten protocols on who should be listed as an author on a paper, who can be simply acknowledged in the text, what order the author names go in, whether someone merits an invited talk or not, etc. These protocols are based as much on custom as on any objective criteria. The INTP researchers I know apply them automatically, and are taken aback when someone "breaks the rules". The INTJ colleagues are more likely not to bother with it, to leave someone out, or to object outright when someone is included by protocol when their contribution was minimal.

    Conversations can go like this:

    INTJ: (Shares paper draft with colleagues, listing no authors; after all, it's only a draft, circulated to get comments on the content.)

    INTP: Who are you listing as authors?

    INTJ: The two of us and Jackson.

    INTP: You need to include Dalton as well - he did the modelling.

    INTJ: He published that already, and I've included a reference to his paper.

    INTP: But we discussed it with him as it applies to our experiment. That went beyond his paper.

    INTJ: OK, we can list him in an acknowledgment.

    INTP: (is left thinking INTJ is stubborn and greedy with credit)

    INTJ: (is left thinking INTP wants to list everyone including the janitor on the paper)
    In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That's why Physics is easy and Sociology is hard. -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

  2. #142
    ¤ Array Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Just because I can recognise it when I see it doesn't mean I use it.
    If I did, I wouldn't still be derailing, now would I?
    *chortle*

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    But since I'm apparently your favourite topic of discussion, I'll humour you.
    Your delusions are sexy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra
    Regardless (and this is where you were wrong above), it's still a manifestation of Fe, it's just a perverted manifestation.
    How can I be wrong if that's EXACTLY what I wrote?
    Because that's not EXACTLY what you wrote.

    What you wrote was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé
    This is a perversion of extroverted feeling, not a manifestation of it. [emphasis added]
    The point of my statement was to redress your counterfactual claim that a perversion of extroverted feeling is not a manifestation of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Amargith's understanding was wrong, in a critical way, in a way most people on this board get the inferior function wrong. I simply corrected it.
    Not really.

    She was pointing to the right thing; you're just being a nitpicky Ti user with shitty Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't remember your PM. I expect it was a case of tl;dr.
    Yes, your response was unimpressive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Now, we can go back to analysing what's wrong with you guys.
    Proceed.

    Oh, but one piece of advice: you might want to try addressing what's actually wrong with us, not just how you prefer things a certain way, and how you don't like how INTJs prefer them another way (not that everything you said fell in this box, but most of it did).

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ....actually my analysis was right, but not worded in a way which sounds 'right' to Ti-users, I suspect.
    I'm sure some would have been more willing to accept it/let it slide than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As Z is a Te-user, he might be a) having the same issue and b) getting what I was getting at, I think.
    Oh, I understand just what's going on, both on your side, and on hers.

    Fortunately, I don't possess the Ti-reet gene, so it's not a problem from my side.

    (Note: not all Ti users possess the Ti-reet gene; it's just unfortunate having to deal with those that do.)
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  3. #143
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    ....actually my analysis was right, but not worded in a way which sounds 'right' to Ti-users, I suspect. As Z is a Te-user, he might be a) having the same issue and b) getting what I was getting at, I think.
    No, it wasn't. Although you are starting to sound like Z.
    Excuse me if I continue to delude myself that I know my own type better than either of you.
    Most INTPs have better developed Fi than Fe, because Fi is not their inferior function. This is where you guys get your orders all mixed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The INTP researchers I know apply them automatically, and are taken aback when someone "breaks the rules". The INTJ colleagues are more likely not to bother with it, to leave someone out, or to object outright when someone is included by protocol when their contribution was minimal.
    This just sounds like classic INTJ arrogance / INTP humility, to moi. *eats apple*

    INTP: (is left thinking INTJ is stubborn and greedy with credit)
    S/he's probably right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Oh, and one piece of advice: you might want to try addressing what's actually wrong with us
    I'll leave that for others to figure out...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  4. #144
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    Well, at least your motives are clear.
    The Justice Fighter

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    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  5. #145
    Make 2017 a good one! Array Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    No, it wasn't. Although you are starting to sound like Z.
    Excuse me if I continue to delude myself that I know my own type better than either of you.
    Most INTPs have better developed Fi than Fe, because Fi is not their inferior function. This is where you guys get your orders all mixed up.

    This just sounds like classic INTJ arrogance / INTP humility, to moi. *eats apple*

    S/he's probably right.
    Why, coz I won't budge on this? You may know INTPs more..intimately, being one, but surely you too know that when you are that close to something, there are sides you will be blind to? Things that feel so natural and so...obvious to you that it is hard to imagine that someone else wouldnt experience them as such? The humility thing is a good example of that. It isn't something an INTJ even contemplates..not coz he is purposefully negligent but coz it just doesn't...occur to him to actually pay attention to something like that as it is the paper itself that matters to them. Te vs Fe. Credit is a form of currency that INTJs have to *learn* to appreciate.

    The fact that you automatically assume that that arrogance makes them refuse to give (social) credit instead of just not recognising the value of it and attach humility to INTPs (even if in jest) is, believe it or not, a display of Fe, as credit, humility, and for that matter things like blame are group concepts. Those words are to be viewed in relation to other people. Since INTJs tend to be really self-reliant and not exactly focused on relationships with others, they tend to not care about those concepts. The whole group dynamic is often a mystery to them, until it gets in their way and they sit down to actually work out why it is getting in their way. (social) Credit tends to be based on actual size and relevance of the contribution, not the social value that since someone worked on something they should be mentioned as a professional courtesy. INTPs tend to know this, even if they do not necessarily agree with or work within that dynamic.


    NTPs for that matter tend to be quite good at gauging who is gaining what from the social system and often deduct other peoples motivations from how they move within that social system, which perks they gain, which draw backs certain social behaviours within a group will have. And what power can be gained through it. And one of the major problems is that their conclusions as to the motives of Fe-users may be quite good as they too use that social system, but are often way off with Fi-users who do not pay attention to group dynamics usually, to get their way (though with time, we can sort of see the pattern and game the system, it still feels artificial in a way).

    And yes, you yourself occasionally do observe these things about others. Who gains power through playing the social system. It is rare to hear INTJs comment on such things though.
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  6. #146
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This just sounds like classic INTJ arrogance / INTP humility, to moi. *eats apple*

    S/he's probably right.
    I won't claim never to come across as arrogant, but I and most of my INTJ colleagues are very good about giving credit where it is due. The highlighted is critical. Someone must meet a certain threshold of contribution to be an author on a paper. We will similarly refuse to allow others to list us as authors if we have not reached that threshold. This is just quality control, or even professional integrity. (A recent physics journal described the phenomenon of author creep, in terms of average number of authors per publication, a value that has increased significantly over the past century.)
    In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That's why Physics is easy and Sociology is hard. -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I won't claim never to come across as arrogant, but I and most of my INTJ colleagues are very good about giving credit where it is due. The highlighted is critical. Someone must meet a certain threshold of contribution to be an author on a paper. We will similarly refuse to allow others to list us as authors if we have not reached that threshold. This is just quality control, or even professional integrity. (A recent physics journal described the phenomenon of author creep, in terms of average number of authors per publication, a value that has increased significantly over the past century.)
    My, my. Anyone would think you were obsessed with protocol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I don't get what this means though I will guess it means the only thing INTJs have to be afraid of is losing their power.

  9. #149
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Why, coz I won't budge on this? You may know INTPs more..intimately, being one, but surely you too know that when you are that close to something, there are sides you will be blind to? Things that feel so natural and so...obvious to you that it is hard to imagine that someone else wouldnt experience them as such? The humility thing is a good example of that. It isn't something an INTJ even contemplates..not coz he is purposefully negligent but coz it just doesn't...occur to him to actually pay attention to something like that as it is the paper itself that matters to them. Te vs Fe. Credit is a form of currency that INTJs have to *learn* to appreciate.

    The fact that you automatically assume that that arrogance makes them refuse to give (social) credit instead of just not recognising the value of it and attach humility to INTPs (even if in jest) is, believe it or not, a display of Fe, as credit, humility, and for that matter things like blame are group concepts. Those words are to be viewed in relation to other people. Since INTJs tend to be really self-reliant and not exactly focused on relationships with others, they tend to not care about those concepts. The whole group dynamic is often a mystery to them, until it gets in their way and they sit down to actually work out why it is getting in their way. (social) Credit tends to be based on actual size and relevance of the contribution, not the social value that since someone worked on something they should be mentioned as a professional courtesy. INTPs tend to know this, even if they do not necessarily agree with or work within that dynamic
    As usual, Amargith gets it. Our focus is elsewhere, on the objective content of the work. I've had arguments about credit and "naming rights" with people when a project is barely off the ground. I've had to shut them down by saying: let's just get the work done. I don't really care who gets credit. We'll sort it out later when we have actual results. Humility seems a pointless concept. I prefer accuracy and necessity. Either you can do what you claim, or you cannot. Either there is a need for you to mention what you can do, or there isn't.

    As for blind spots, I was thinking the same thing myself. I understand that others might see some things about me more clearly than I do, and try to use whatever feedback I get to peer into these areas. Threads like this can be helpful if the comments are honest and accurate. (Sorry if that falls short of the standard for INTJ arrogance, but ignorance will not help us on our path to perfection.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    My, my. Anyone would think you were obsessed with protocol.
    Quite. When it is necessary. E.g. there are protocols for starting up and shutting down equipment which, if not closely followed, can result in equipment breakage or personal injury.
    In science, when human behavior enters the equation, things go nonlinear. That's why Physics is easy and Sociology is hard. -- Neil deGrasse Tyson

  10. #150
    How's that workin for ya? Array Urarienev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    INTPs have/use Fe; some better than others. Inferior functions are not so much watered down as outside conscious control. It will affect us whether we like it or not. We can crowd it out through reliance on our dom/aux, but sometimes that just causes it to erupt in inopportune ways. As Zarathustra mentioned, we can learn to become more aware of it, which is at least half the battle in bringing it under our conscious control. For example, as an INTJ my inferior is Se, but as a scientist I would be fairly useless if I could not make consistent and reliable measurements of concrete observables in the real world. We will always be better at our dominant and aux, but can learn to use the others, much as we use our non-preferred hand to good effect.


    There is a great example of this, which I didn't identify as such until someone pointed it out (Uumlau? Z??). This is professional courtesies. There is a whole host of unwritten protocols on who should be listed as an author on a paper, who can be simply acknowledged in the text, what order the author names go in, whether someone merits an invited talk or not, etc. These protocols are based as much on custom as on any objective criteria. The INTP researchers I know apply them automatically, and are taken aback when someone "breaks the rules". The INTJ colleagues are more likely not to bother with it, to leave someone out, or to object outright when someone is included by protocol when their contribution was minimal.

    Conversations can go like this:

    INTJ: (Shares paper draft with colleagues, listing no authors; after all, it's only a draft, circulated to get comments on the content.)

    INTP: Who are you listing as authors?

    INTJ: The two of us and Jackson.

    INTP: You need to include Dalton as well - he did the modelling.

    INTJ: He published that already, and I've included a reference to his paper.

    INTP: But we discussed it with him as it applies to our experiment. That went beyond his paper.

    INTJ: OK, we can list him in an acknowledgment.

    INTP: (is left thinking INTJ is stubborn and greedy with credit)

    INTJ: (is left thinking INTP wants to list everyone including the janitor on the paper)


    Yea I pretty much know what the inferiors do I was just giving the bottom line of: we have unconcious behaviors, even thoughts, some are good, some are bad, and I was just saying people know them best as negatives about others or themselves because that's how they usully manifest. But you defined it nicely thanks!

    I understand what @Amargith meant now, I just didn't know that's what she meant watered down was. I thought watered down translated to: like a drink, you get a glass of cola watered down and you only taste a hint of the cola...meaning peoples' inferior would not be the extreme of the unconcious and uncontrolled coming out. But I agree with her now that I know what she meant .


    In regards to this convo. All details, and crap that is nit picked, stops when you know what the INTJ's intentions are (which is in the first damn sentence) IT'S A DRAFT...it's not perfect. At this stage in the game there is no need for details that are OBVIOUS. Of course you have to give credit. Why is the INTP automatically thinking that the INTJ has bad intentions. Just like some people on here don't even give others a chance, they start out with thinking "this person's probably stupid, I'm going to skim over what they say and take it literally and they now have to prove thier intellegence" That to me is crazy. The INTJ obviously knows they have to give credit...Unless you(said INTP) know that they never went to school and you had the very same interaction before with that same INTJ and they forgot to credit people, Only then can you start assuming they either have bad intentions(defined as: taking all the credit, <---I can't assume people know that's what I mean) or they just don't know enough about writing to know they have to list references and credit.

    Does this happen irl? I would be really annoyed at that person for that. Do you have a bad history or something? I see that as a huge problem.
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