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  1. #131
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Believe it or not, the same is true for INTPs and their Fe. Despite your preference for logic and while that takes priority every time, the way in which you navigate the social world (when it does not interfere with your Ti) is very much Fe. The expectations you have from society and from people in general, are Fe-flavoured.
    Just restating a wrong assumption won't magically make it right. You have nothing to back this up. Not even CF theory (properly understood) will back it up. This is just an oft-repeated mistake.

    But look around on INTPc. As long as it does not threaten their individual freedom (their Ti), INTPs tend to at least subscribe to the theory of Fe. Their observations wrt people are focused on the same things as Fe-doms and aux users as are their expectations wrt other people.
    I don't see it. I see inferior Fe in bucket loads.
    For example: hazing or ignoring newbs, bonding by attacking / excluding others rather than by finding positive common ground. Paranoia. Resistance to the imposition of any rules or standards. Antagonism towards authority. Lots of in-fighting and splitting off into exclusive cliques. Which splinter yet further because no one agrees on anything or someone feels slighted. An inability to come to constructive consensus on anything. Cults of personality. Witch-hunts. Sadistic humour. All kinds of drama which shatter, rather than promote, cohesion. (Meanwhile constantly complaining about that drama as if it were created by an external agency and not themselves.)
    This is a perversion of extroverted feeling, not a manifestation of it. It is a distorted projection - as all functions which remain unconscious (I.e. inferior) must be. These things are fostered/fester at INTPc because it is the rejection of tradition/community (Si/Fe) that leads (damaged) INTPs to congregate there. They are bound together by the things they hate in common. They don't understand that what they really hate is a projection.

    Therefore to suggest that INTP "social protocols" are informed by Si/Fe, is to misunderstand completely, what makes them tick. If such things exist at all, they are informed by an irrational rejection of anything Si/Fe.

    Watered-down cola is still cola. Even if it just has a hint of flavour. Which is what I meant I guess when I wrote that 'traditionally' (which again, is how it was meant).
    If you think inferior Fe is watered-down Fe, it is simply because you have an inferior understanding of Fe. As well as of CF theory. "Inferior" in the Jungian sense does not mean anything approaching "watered-down". It's like the opposite, in fact. Unconscious "functions" often have stronger effects than conscious ones, but those effects are universally negative. "Watered down" more accurately describes the auxiliary manifestation of a function. Maybe do some reading outside of these forums (which are laden with lay misunderstandings of Jungian concepts).

    To return to your analysis, no INTP is going to say "let's do it this way, because this is the way it has always been done" (Si) or "let's do it this way, because that's what the majority think is the right thing to do" (Fe). This is the direct opposite of what we do. We inherently mistrust established protocols and *must* test their limits. We are attracted to novelty. We are attracted to individuality and difference. We are persuaded only by the elegance and perfection of an idea, not by it's popularity or pedigree.
    Ti is the opposite of Fe. Ne is the opposite of Si. They do not comfortably coexist, albeit in "watered-down" form.
    Cognitive function theory, 101.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #132
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    Ok, if i read that correctly, you actually agree with me, we're just coming from opposite ends to the same conclusion with and differ in communicating our pov (Ti and Te, I guess ). In other words, I'm flunking your Ti bar coz when it comes to that shit, I lack the vocabulary and am too sloppy in my wording to pass Ti standards, but am on the same page as you are wrt the topic.
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  3. #133
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    If an intp doesn't learn to consciously use their Fe, then it instead becomes an overbearing 'shadow' which guides their increasingly irrational actions covered up by post-factum 'logic' to rationalize said actions.

    Everyone sees the shadow except said intp.

    For a moderate cost I will give classes on how to control your ones Fe and acheive greatness like My Excellency.

    Line up, Line up!

  4. #134
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This is a perversion of extroverted feeling, not a manifestation of it.
    You were spot on in everything you were saying above here, and (mostly) here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It is a distorted projection - as all functions which remain unconscious (I.e. inferior) must be.
    This is where you got tripped up.

    The inferior can, and often does, manifest in unhealthy ways.

    But it does not have to, and the healthier and more developed one is, the less it will manifest in this way.

    Regardless (and this is where you were wrong above), it's still a manifestation of Fe, it's just a perverted manifestation.

    Frankly, I think you confuse your manifestation of Fe with all INTPs' manifestation of Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Therefore to suggest that INTP "social protocols" are informed by Si/Fe, is to misunderstand completely, what makes them tick. If such things exist at all, they are informed by an irrational rejection of anything Si/Fe.
    As I told you in a PM a long time ago, rejection is only one of the manifestations of the inferior.

    I believe I delineated three others at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Unconscious "functions" often have stronger effects than conscious ones, but those effects are universally negative.
    You're right about the first part, not about the second.

    The effects aren't universally negative.

    That's how they tend to start off.

    But one can gain more conscious control over them, and, thru integration and differentiation, turn them into more positive forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    To return to your analysis, no INTP is going to say "let's do it this way, because this is the way it has always been done" (Si) or "let's do it this way, because that's what the majority think is the right thing to do" (Fe). This is the direct opposite of what we do. We inherently mistrust established protocols and *must* test their limits. We are attracted to novelty. We are attracted to individuality and difference. We are persuaded only by the elegance and perfection of an idea, not by it's popularity or pedigree.
    Ti is the opposite of Fe. Ne is the opposite of Si. They do not comfortably coexist, albeit in "watered-down" form.
    Yes, they are opposites.

    But they also weave into one another in complex, often unconscious ways.

    The truth is more complicated than you describe it here, as I told you a long time ago.

    Make more peace with your inferior, integrate your shadow more, and your tune will change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Cognitive function theory, 101.
    Apparently you haven't taken the graduate level courses.

    / "domination, elimination, and eventual sexual conquest"
    The Justice Fighter

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    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

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  5. #135
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Derailing is annoying for the OP. If you start a thread to talk about one topic, you don't want it to be hijacked by another. Isn't that just common sense??
    / SiFe
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  6. #136
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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  7. #137
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    funny. ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    Are you sure you're not an ENFP? Because you don't reason like any kind of NT.

    "Irrelevant" would be most of what you've just written there. Do you honestly not understand the concept of irrelevance? Because I'm not sure I can explain it if you don't.

    Wow. Take a breath! Amargith meant that we were focussing too much on the difference between INTPs and INTJs, and that, for most people, being different from an INTP doesn't constitute "an issue" (the focus of this thread).

    Derailing is annoying for the OP. If you start a thread to talk about one topic, you don't want it to be hijacked by another. Isn't that just common sense??

    I think you'll find making too many assumptions and not communicating clearly pisses most people off, irrespective of type.

    If you would like to discuss my inferior function there's a separate thread for that. There you can berate my mistakes. I'm very sure I'm not an ENFP.

    Obviously I know what "irrelevance" is to me. ( I was asking what it was for you?) Just like your "common sense" your talking about. It is relative. They both are relative.

    Common sense Noun:
    Good sense and sound judgment in practical matters.<---if you go into a bank and someone says get a deposit slip or lets go even deeper and get an IRA...and you have no fucking idea what an IRA is or a deposit slip, because of the simple fact that you had never been to a bank before, That is not "lack of common sense". This is my first forum I've ever been on...if you couldn't tell. And if I were to take your question and ask myself " If you start a thread to talk about one topic would you want it hijacked by another." I would answer why do I think it's hijacking?. I would be glad that people were getting together and learning. And if I did have a problem with it I would simply say..."focus guys"

    Obviously I know that by s p e l l i n g i t o u t in my example with Amargith, I was giving an example of derailing....and by giving that example I was in fact derailing at that given time. I also said in that example that it didn't actually pertain to this particular thread. And said that the INTJ's could comment anytime saying "hey your screwing us up, go away" but they didn't. By doing that I was also just giving an example of how we(NTJ's and NTP's)...obviously...don't see the same "big picture" cause (you said) we get caught up in too many details. I think that the details explain the big picture. <---something that I left out I figured once I explained the big picture others would not have a hard time adding things up. I completely acknowledge that I do that (make assumptions and not communicate clearly enough). There's no need for You to point it out(Fe), its redundant and unnecessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    WE DON'T HAVE FE.
    I thought all INTP's have Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post

    Watered-down cola is still cola. Even if it just has a hint of flavour. Which is what I meant I guess when I wrote that 'traditionally' (which again, is how it was meant)
    Hmm...I didn't think inferiors were watered down. I thought that they were kinda the negative side of people...and I also thought that they were the exact opposite of watered down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    I don't see it. I see inferior Fe in bucket loads.
    For example: hazing or ignoring newbs, bonding by attacking / excluding others rather than by finding positive common ground. Paranoia. Resistance to the imposition of any rules or standards. Antagonism towards authority. Lots of in-fighting and splitting off into exclusive cliques. Which splinter yet further because no one agrees on anything or someone feels slighted. An inability to come to constructive consensus on anything. Cults of personality. Witch-hunts. Sadistic humour. All kinds of drama which shatter, rather than promote, cohesion. (Meanwhile constantly complaining about that drama as if it were created by an external agency and not themselves.)

    To return to your analysis, no INTP is going to say "let's do it this way, because this is the way it has always been done" (Si) or "let's do it this way, because that's what the majority think is the right thing to do" (Fe). This is the direct opposite of what we do. We inherently mistrust established protocols and *must* test their limits. We are attracted to novelty. We are attracted to individuality and difference. We are persuaded only by the elegance and perfection of an idea, not by it's popularity or pedigree.
    Ti is the opposite of Fe. Ne is the opposite of Si. They do not comfortably coexist, albeit in "watered-down" form.
    Cognitive function theory, 101.

    First paragraph- you're explaining YOUR inferior Fe right ha ha...?

    Second paragraph- It seems to me that INTP's Si says ... it needs to be written THIS WAY *thunder rolls* That is Si's #1 favorite job. It wants to come up with the best word to describe things. And INTP's are very good at getting just the right word to fit their sentences. It's quite nice. That's why I don't often go into much with them because we cannot get past the way things are communicated. Forget what's communicated, we could agree completely but not see eye because of wording and writing styles...which Te finds irrelevant. It's the way I say things that causes the Fe to come out. No you're right it is not "what will the majority think is the right thing to do" for an INTP. It's "What will the other people around us think, when I twist this persons' words, or try to make them look like a fool because of the mistakes they've made."

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    If an intp doesn't learn to consciously use their Fe, then it instead becomes an overbearing 'shadow' which guides their increasingly irrational actions covered up by post-factum 'logic' to rationalize said actions.

    Everyone sees the shadow except said intp.

    For a moderate cost I will give classes on how to control your ones Fe and acheive greatness like My Excellency.

    Line up, Line up!
    How much to get in? Are we just talking monetary costs, cause the NF's have cookies and glitter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    / SiFe
    funny.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  8. #138
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    What I meant with watered down is stripped down to the basics. No finesse, no richness, no nuance, no mastery, just the bare minimum. This also goes for the way in which it is handled, as it isnt exactly a skill that one feels the desire to master, though mastering the bare minimum does definitely help with sorting out its more toxic effects and allows a better handle of that skill. Meanwhile someone who uses the same function for their dominant function will work with a myriad of shades instead of just black and white, and develop some finesse with it....though none of this guarantees mastery of all those shades of grey and toxicity might still occur if development is inhibited by for instance the environment the person has to function in.
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  9. #139
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    / SiFe
    Just because I can recognise it when I see it doesn't mean I use it.
    If I did, I wouldn't still be derailing, now would I?
    But since I'm apparently your favourite topic of discussion, I'll humour you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Regardless (and this is where you were wrong above), it's still a manifestation of Fe, it's just a perverted manifestation.
    How can I be wrong if that's EXACTLY what I wrote?
    Amargith's understanding was wrong, in a critical way, in a way most people on this board get the inferior function wrong. I simply corrected it.

    Yes, one can improve over time, but one does not usually tackle one's inferior until after midlife, so I have plenty of time left. And I'm already ahead of the numpties who fail to grasp the nature of their deficiencies. Not looking at anyone in particular...

    I don't remember your PM. I expect it was a case of tl;dr.

    Now, we can go back to analysing what's wrong with you guys.

    / "domination, elimination, and eventual sexual conquest"
    Dream on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #140
    Butterfly Amargith's Avatar
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    ....actually my analysis was right, but not worded in a way which sounds 'right' to Ti-users, I suspect. As Z is a Te-user, he might be a) having the same issue and b) getting what I was getting at, I think.

    For that matter..where is the INTP Issues thread, coz this thing should go in there

    Meanwhile, it is making for a very interesting demo though, this convo.
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    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

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