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Thread: Common INTJ Issues

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is pointless to tell us that we are wrong and call us incompetent. If, on the other hand, you can actually show us how we are wrong (evidence, not an empty assertion), or show where our competence is lacking or yours is better, we will listen. If we still disagree, we will have something substantive to disagree on. I have changed my opinion on a dime when presented with facts of which I was unaware, and sound reasoning based on it. I do, after all, want to be right, and will not turn down any legitimate source of information or learning.
    LMAO, yet INTJs have this need to do this to others because when they are disgusted mentally they cant get anything out other then judgment I can get my INTJ dad so shoved up in his disgusted mentality, its a common occurence when our values, opinions, etc. differ and he doesnt see things the way I do.

    On a side note the INTJ will show his incompetence on his own, he doesnt need to be called incompetent. This pertains more to real life though, not sure how much it shows in the boards here. And its so interesting when it happens because its kinda like a laugh, mixed with a holy shit, oops, sorry, all wrapped up in Fi. Of course those are the healthy ones and open to being wrong. Of course healthy is my personal opinion because things are about truth, not some image people try to maintain. Truth leads to moving forward, while putting on some facade of an image is all about being fake.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'd say its a difference in priorities. INTPs tend to prioritise and entertain their logic and ideas in an open mind, whereas INTJs prioritise external realities and how they can suit their vision. While both may have an active interest in the same topic, where they are going with that information is radically different. And due to those different perspectives a clash may occur as to what in fact does matter more. Add to that that Te tends to be rather absolute when it says that this needs to be done (in order to complete the vision, which is often not mentioned as it is assumed clear to everyone) and that is a definite way to piss off an independent Ne-user, no doubt
    Watching INTPs and INTJs conflict at work is interesting, especially since I come from both a Ti and an Ni mindset. Its like 2 people in a pissing contest and pretty interesting. INTJ will argue something cant be done because they dont have the vision yet of how to do it, INTP will actually use reality to back themself up while INTJ goes back to theory. I believe this is due to the P vs J, where as the P will use logic and J will use concepts. I personally find myself backing up the INTJ in most cases, if not finding a compromise that actually works. This is a personal choice though and I am completely aware of it being nothing more then a personal choice. INTJ will seem to be short-sighted when it comes to vision, and INTP will be trying to come up with ways to reach there goal and niether will win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Meanwhile however, the fact that INTPs feel the need to nitpick at every bit of the logical process, even the parts that are not practical in reality and will actually gain you nothing tangible (and do not work towards a specific goal) piss off an INTJ , especially as INTJs tend to be on the clock and have little patience for what they consider redundancy (which your ideas are to them, as they are of no particular use in their priorities). Butthurt happens because Ti feels invalidated by the INTJ and Te feels frustrated at the INTPs insistence to comb through every little redundant piece of information (hence delaying the process of actually getting shit done already), and worse, the need to keep going through that same loop until the information is including (Ti-Si loops in INTPs seriously can drive someone to the point of banging their heads against the wall, no offense ).
    Its 2 stubborn people going after a goal that differs because the INTJ lack of vision to reach the INTP goals puts a hinder on things. Like you said its about "their" priorities, and honestly coming up with win-win is the easiest way to work with people who are all about there own goals and priorities. That doesnt work with INTP as we are more about values not always goal driven WIN-WIN and one of our values is truth, detail, and the bigger picture while INTJ will seem short-sighted and reason for immediate resolution over the more complete solution. This is what I have to deal with when working with INTJ and its funny because my INTJ dad calls me impatient. In everyday life I may be, but when it comes to things that actually matter, the tides flip and he becomes impatient. Everyday things to me arent important, spending 20 minutes in a car trying to rip open a plastic package drives him nuts, yet its a challenge to me. He stops doing things because he is impatient, and then calls me impatient because I dont follow the same thing because its a challenge to me not a frustration. I want the thing I bought opened right now, I wont wait till I get home and actually have the right tools. I never really care and just tend to ignore him when he does this though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    On top of that, the way in which Ti takes things apart and challenges them for being incomplete or not properly prioritised invalidates the Fi-values of the individual (which means that they in turn feel that their freedom is trampled upon) and undermines the Ni vision which causes defensiveness and stonewalling from Te, whereas the INTP will actually in turn feel frustration at the fact that the INTJ doesnt seem to want to follow protocol as to how things are done, communicated and debated, traditionally...aka SiFe. Rest assured that Im aware of the fact that the NiFi loop is equally 'bangwall'-worthy
    Seems pretty accurate in regard to INTP/INTJ, not so much as a general Ti vs Fi nature though. Since Salome questioned INTP sticklers for protocol I have seen some who are, and then I have seen some who "use" protocol in there favor when they need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    (For the record, Im aware that Ti is going to go nuts over the holes that are to be found in my first draft, so consider this a brainstorm session )
    High level it sounds pretty good. Its just 2 people beating there heads against a wall, the INTJ tends to go down the path of frustration, irritability, impatient, while the INTP follows the path of trying to dig deeper, come up with solutions, etc. Being a P I prefer the latter and prefer to work with people who are like me. The INTJs tend to internalize alot of the frustration, irritability, impatient, etc though so its not to hard to deal with personally. I think its more of an Si vs Ni thing though when it comes to INTP/INTJ. I have never had a problem working with INTJ and I even go so far as to question the things they do to "get things to work" because it opens up loop holes and confusion in other areas though it solves "one" problem though I come with an open mind and it becomes more of a back and forth reasoning to find the best solution.

    On a side note watching an ESTJ come down an on ENTJ is so frickin interesting, the ENTJ stumbles all over himself as he tries to ween and work his way through things based on reasoning and the ESTJ spots key holes and wont budge off of those. Its like the ESTJ playing the "I dont understand card", but in an extremely heavy Te manner. Its like you either know your shit or you dont and from my experience Ti shines in that department because its open with thought as opposed to trying to reason out things. Of course the Ti person will either fall flat on there faces due to incompetence or shine like the holy grail because he knows his crap, what actually matters, has every detail nailed down with very few holes, and the few holes that are there are being worked for accuracy which is appreciated.

    Anyway, this is from a third party perspective.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  3. #123
    Filthy Apes! Array Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    That doesnt work with INTP as we are more about values not always goal driven WIN-WIN and one of our values is truth, detail, and the bigger picture while INTJ will seem short-sighted and reason for immediate resolution over the more complete solution.
    The word you're looking for there is "detached"--the more detached solution--and all the necessary development of sufficiently complete principles that detachment from contingent mechanism entails.

    Free floating logic. I don't even know what to say when people start using it.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The word you're looking for there is "detached"--the more detached solution--and all the necessary development of sufficiently complete principles that detachment from contingent mechanism entails.

    Free floating logic. I don't even know what to say when people start using it.
    Nope, i said what i meant. INTJ is only detached when it comes to solutions in regard to other people. I dont get the INTJ detachment sttatementt at all and in my eyes IPs are more detached then INTJs. You guys tend to internalize way to much to be detached IRL from my experience.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Nope, i said what i meant. INTJ is only detached when it comes to solutions in regard to other people. I dont get the INTJ detachment sttatementt at all and in my eyes IPs are more detached then INTJs. You guys tend to internalize way to much to be detached IRL from my experience.
    We agree. I was saying the INTP's "more complete" solution is better described as more detached. If INTJ solutions are detached at all, it's in the sense of "separated from concerns for a more complete logic". One might also call this a version of "pragmatic". The logic of the solution is less important than contingent efficacy toward a grander plan.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  6. #126
    meh Array Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I won't deny we have a need to control, but the thing we most want to control is ourselves and our own environment.
    I agree. But sometimes you have grandiose ideas about what(who) comprises/compromises said environment.

    The impulse is much stronger in (unbalanced/young) male INTJs, anyway, as I have already said. Sexuality is a recurring problem for them. They like to think they are 'above' the baser instincts that drive the seething masses, (how many INTJs males claim to be asexual?) but find that they are not, and this is a source of great frustration, because it's the one area where their drive for self-sufficiency and mastery is completely thwarted. They can't command their environment to meet their needs and tend to lack the charm or humility to seduce, so they do the sour- grapes thing ("didn't want it anyway"/"I'm a pervert"), and the repressed drive is distorted into something darkly hostile and profane. It's the flip side of sublimation. Or the slightly better adjusted ones resort to something like PUA - they are seduced by the idea that they can gain mastery of this unfathomable realm through "knowledge" and strategy - which is simply slipping back into their comfort zone. Which of course, leads to failure and more frustration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    But I did have to lol a bit because...

    While subjective protocols require only scorn, if for instance we're instead talking human or equal rights....

    Male INTPs seem to strike up brotherhoods at the earliest opportunity too. They make them like clubs with.... protocols.
    Compare and contrast the protocols of a place like INTJforum, with INTPCentral...

    Amargith claims that INTPs are particularly interested in "SiFe" "traditional" protocol. She could not be more wrong. There are few things that wind us up more. That is not to say that INTPs don't have their own ideas about etiquette, but that wasn't the point she was making.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I disagree. I don't think many P's ime are good at looking at a video/seminar/anything like that and simply saying "I will/have broaden my span of knowledge
    from this" Especially if it's something that they've never been introduced to. They're the first ones to use thier subjective judgement for critisim.

    And how can something truly be irrelevant? If it relates...lol...it relates. everything is relative. Just becaue it's not relative to that person...because they don't want to take that particular information in at that particular time...does not mean it's irrelevant lol. <---I am just really trying to understand this "irrelevance" Ti brings up.
    Are you sure you're not an ENFP? Because you don't reason like any kind of NT.

    "Irrelevant" would be most of what you've just written there. Do you honestly not understand the concept of irrelevance? Because I'm not sure I can explain it if you don't.

    Example: Amargith mentioned how we are derailing. <-- I don't understand this concept of derailing in this context. In the" big picture" we are people intrested in learning. Then somewhere in there the next level down is that we are people that like going on the internet (or whatever brings you to your computer). Then we are people that like to talk about the different personality types that have been theorized. And in all of this...we are still trying to learn and gain new knowledge. lol. If we start to find that the place to discuss this specific topic should have a thread( ie differences between NTJ and NTP's...or whatever.) then we can. So I still find it relevant to discuss what about NTJ's, pisses S off or whatever. Cause we are still talking about issues lol and learning. I don't get why all of a sudden people accuse people of derailing on here so much?(obviously not this one in specific) am I way off basis? and wouldn't one of the INTJ's say something if they thought is was derailing? I'm equating irrelevance with derailing...should I not be doing this? <---I'm genuinely looking for direction/feedback.
    Wow. Take a breath! Amargith meant that we were focussing too much on the difference between INTPs and INTJs, and that, for most people, being different from an INTP doesn't constitute "an issue" (the focus of this thread).

    Derailing is annoying for the OP. If you start a thread to talk about one topic, you don't want it to be hijacked by another. Isn't that just common sense??

    I think this is 100% correct. I usually leave things out that I assume are clear.(Then Ti trys to pick it apart and point out glitches or something. And I get confused cause now I never know how much I have to spell out lol) I didn't know this was Ne I was "pissing off"(insert whatever word here, "confusing" maybe?) when I do this , interesting.
    I think you'll find making too many assumptions and not communicating clearly pisses most people off, irrespective of type.
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  7. #127
    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Amargith claims that INTPs are particularly interested in "SiFe" "traditional" protocol. She could not be more wrong. There are few things that wind us up more. That is not to say that INTPs don't have their own ideas about etiquette, but that wasn't the point she was making.
    Err...it wasn't? Why didn't anyone tell me?

    That it wasnt the traditional kind but the INTP kind was in fact was implied. My (Te?)bad, I guess. While INTP protocol is the very watered down version of an Fe-doms protocol, to an INTJ (and guys, correct me if Im wrong here) and for that matter to me (and I wager other Fi-users) it is still a social protocol. And feels rather alien to us. Considering that INTJs supposedly have an Fe-blindspot, that protocol held up by SiFe which not only is the watered down version, but also shows none of the skill level of an Fe-dom, lets be honest here (meaning less patience and more visceral reactions on the few things they do want their crude protocol on, ime), that thing is going to cause a never ending streak of misunderstandings and irritation, unless both parties give each other a little leeway and the benefit of the doubt, from what Ive seen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Take a breath! Amargith meant that we were focussing too much on the difference between INTPs and INTJs, and that, for most people, being different from an INTP doesn't constitute "an issue" (the focus of this thread).

    Derailing is annoying for the OP. If you start a thread to talk about one topic, you don't want it to be hijacked by another. Isn't that just common sense??

    I think you'll find making too many assumptions and not communicating clearly pisses most people off, irrespective of type.
    Ahh this one you did get right. 1 out of 2. Not bad for your first try in my shoes

    The delivery needs work though
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Err...it wasn't? Why didn't anyone tell me?
    I just did.
    That it wasnt the traditional kind but the INTP kind was in fact was implied.
    Allow me to refresh your memory:
    INTP will actually in turn feel frustration at the fact that the INTJ doesnt seem to want to follow protocol as to how things are done, communicated and debated, traditionally...aka SiFe.*
    Not much room for interpretation there.
    This is where you cf order 'gurus' go wrong. We don't have Fe. We don't have Fe. Inferior Fe means WE DON'T HAVE FE.

    While INTP protocol is the very watered down version of an Fe-doms protocol,
    No.
    In fact, WE DON'T HAVE FE.
    it is still a social protocol. And feels rather alien to us.
    Not as alien as it does to us, because, WE DON'T DO THIS.
    Provide an example of what you're talking about and I'll show you where you're going wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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    INTJs can get stick in their way much like the ISTJ can, so they usually need alot of background information before proceeding forward with a new idea, plan or way of looking at things. The IXTP sees the world in a more objective and perceptive manner however lacks the decisiveness of the IXTJs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I just did.
    Allow me to refresh your memory:

    Not much room for interpretation there.
    This is where you cf order 'gurus' go wrong. We don't have Fe. We don't have Fe. Inferior Fe means WE DON'T HAVE FE.

    No.
    In fact, WE DON'T HAVE FE.
    Not as alien as it does to us, because, WE DON'T DO THIS.
    Provide an example of what you're talking about and I'll show you where you're going wrong.
    It is funny you do not see it that way

    Coz honestly, I do recognise that my inferior Si, while it is nowhere near what an SJs Si is like, affects me in a very watered down version of what SJs do. And boy am I aware of the fact that my version is crude at best. Otoh though being skilled at Si and valuing it the way Si-doms do does not appeal to me at all (though I may appreciate it in them as such). The things they get hung up on, usually do not trip me up, but the very basic things are definitely present (like anxiety and caution at something Im really uncomfortable and unfamiliar with), and when they do get tripped up, I'm more rigid and less capable at handling them than an SJ would be.

    Believe it or not, the same is true for INTPs and their Fe. Despite your preference for logic and while that takes priority every time, the way in which you navigate the social world (when it does not interfere with your Ti) is very much Fe. The expectations you have from society and from people in general, are Fe-flavoured. In general (not saying that this is you though), I find that NTPs focus on patterns in groups and group dynamics than patterns within an individual. You also work with motivation and blame instead of intent and cause when talking about people (which I find Fe-users focus more on and Fi users focus on intent).

    Granted..depending on the topic you shift back between the two, from what Ive seen. But look around on INTPc. As long as it does not threaten their individual freedom (their Ti), INTPs tend to at least subscribe to the theory of Fe. Their observations wrt people are focused on the same things as Fe-doms and aux users as are their expectations wrt other people.

    Watered-down cola is still cola. Even if it just has a hint of flavour. Which is what I meant I guess when I wrote that 'traditionally' (which again, is how it was meant).
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