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  1. #111
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You do realize that INTPs often snag their very own ENFP, right? Don't despair...just yet



    I think that it is choice of which ideas to value and why (essentially Fi) that trips Ti-users with Fi-users in arguments. Ti-users are usually the ones that are quite protective of their actual own (subjective) ideas and their truth as such...from what I can understand ( I havent really bonded with my Ti yet )

    But, see, this is what might help clear up the misunderstanding, in this case between INTJ and INTP: the different approach which comes naturally to ENFPs as Fi-users is what makes INTJs more...open to us. We value our freedom to value what we as a person consider important, so normally we naturally try to respect that in others, whereas Ti-users value their carefully put together ideas and experience it as controlling when someone tries to tell them different based on external data. Id wager (and S, correct me if Im wrong), that they consider NTJs often not thorough enough in their analysis and not inclusive enough in what to consider before forming an opinion on a topic, focusing only on the way things work instead of the way things (in the opinion of the INTP) *are*, as in are put together.
    Second paragraph: Yea sounds right.

    I the first paragraph: I have no idea. I don't understand Ti at all. lol but the ninja is cute
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  2. #112
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You do realize that INTPs often snag their very own ENFP, right? Don't despair...just yet
    The guys often do, it's true (or, more accurately, they get snagged). They don't do it for me though. I much prefer INFPs (less slutty, more discriminating )

    I think that it is choice of which ideas to value and why (essentially Fi) that trips Ti-users with Fi-users in arguments. Ti-users are usually the ones that are quite protective of their actual own (subjective) ideas and their truth as such...from what I can understand ( I havent really bonded with my Ti yet )
    We do defend our ideas, we just don't invest so much of our identity in them (in the way INTJs do) so we are happier to have them challenged. Ps are just generally more open to challenge/new information.
    /obviously

    Ti-users value their carefully put together ideas and experience it as controlling when someone tries to tell them different based on external data. Id wager (and S, correct me if Im wrong), that they consider NTJs often not thorough enough in their analysis and not inclusive enough in what to consider before forming an opinion on a topic, focusing only on the way things work instead of the way things (in the opinion of the INTP) *are*, as in are put together.
    Nah. What pisses me off about NTJs is when they are condescending, insulting, domineering and relentlessly petty. They lose sight of the big picture and get bogged down in irrelevant details and stupid, boring pissing contests which are wholly non-constructive. Part of the reason for that may be because they are closed off to new ideas, but it's difficult to know which is chicken and which is egg. It's not difficult to know which is tiresome though. (Goes without saying this only applies to immature NTJs ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  3. #113
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    I'd say its a difference in priorities. INTPs tend to prioritise and entertain their logic and ideas in an open mind, whereas INTJs prioritise external realities and how they can suit their vision. While both may have an active interest in the same topic, where they are going with that information is radically different. And due to those different perspectives a clash may occur as to what in fact does matter more. Add to that that Te tends to be rather absolute when it says that this needs to be done (in order to complete the vision, which is often not mentioned as it is assumed clear to everyone) and that is a definite way to piss off an independent Ne-user, no doubt

    Meanwhile however, the fact that INTPs feel the need to nitpick at every bit of the logical process, even the parts that are not practical in reality and will actually gain you nothing tangible (and do not work towards a specific goal) piss off an INTJ , especially as INTJs tend to be on the clock and have little patience for what they consider redundancy (which your ideas are to them, as they are of no particular use in their priorities). Butthurt happens because Ti feels invalidated by the INTJ and Te feels frustrated at the INTPs insistence to comb through every little redundant piece of information (hence delaying the process of actually getting shit done already), and worse, the need to keep going through that same loop until the information is including (Ti-Si loops in INTPs seriously can drive someone to the point of banging their heads against the wall, no offense ).

    On top of that, the way in which Ti takes things apart and challenges them for being incomplete or not properly prioritised invalidates the Fi-values of the individual (which means that they in turn feel that their freedom is trampled upon) and undermines the Ni vision which causes defensiveness and stonewalling from Te, whereas the INTP will actually in turn feel frustration at the fact that the INTJ doesnt seem to want to follow protocol as to how things are done, communicated and debated, traditionally...aka SiFe. Rest assured that Im aware of the fact that the NiFi loop is equally 'bangwall'-worthy

    (For the record, Im aware that Ti is going to go nuts over the holes that are to be found in my first draft, so consider this a brainstorm session )
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  4. #114
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    You may understand INTJs, but you definitely don't understand INTPs.
    And when people start spouting off about those stupid (nonexistent) loops I just turn off. You can interpret anything in those terms if you so choose. It has zero validity, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #115
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    See, this right here is the difference between Ti and Te (and it doesnt help that mine is tertiary, Im sure ). Its certainly true that my understanding of INTPs is more limited (I dont live with one), though I tend to get along pretty decently with them. I seem to understand the outer layers and even some beneath, but the core...Im still working on that one

    Anycase, I guess we had to stop derailing this thread at some point

    Edit: I'd love for any INTPs who stumble upon this convo and want to give feedback to rep me whether or not they understood where I was going and if I was onto something. Thanks!
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  6. #116
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    It's the difference between knowing INTPs and not knowing them at all.

    Theories around cog function order/development are complete bullshit. I mean, theoretically, they're a pig's ear and intellectually unsatisfying - so Ti users reject it. Also, empirically, they've been SHOWN to be complete bullshit (incapable of making valid predictions) so Te users reject it. But you Hi-Fi guys, you love that crap. Probably because it explains away all the inconvenient nastiness of people in reversible loopiness and growth potentials. I dunno. Anyway, more specific critique of your post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'd say its a difference in priorities. INTPs tend to prioritise and entertain their logic and ideas in an open mind, whereas INTJs prioritise external realities and how they can suit their vision. While both may have an active interest in the same topic, where they are going with that information is radically different. And due to those different perspectives a clash may occur as to what in fact does matter more.
    Different focus doesnt entail conflict. It can be (and often is, say with an ESTJ) complementary. The conflict is rooted in ego-defense, not conflicting priorities.
    Add to that that Te tends to be rather absolute when it says that this needs to be done (in order to complete the vision, which is often not mentioned as it is assumed clear to everyone) and that is a definite way to piss off an independent Ne-user, no doubt
    Nope. Doesn't piss me off at all. I love (and need) this kind of clarity to be externally imposed at times. I have enough Te to take charge if no one else will, but it's not my preferred role, since it's not my greatest strength.

    Meanwhile however, the fact that INTPs feel the need to nitpick at every bit of the logical process, even the parts that are not practical in reality and will actually gain you nothing tangible (and do not work towards a specific goal) piss off an INTJ , especially as INTJs tend to be on the clock and have little patience for what they consider redundancy (which your ideas are to them, as they are of no particular use in their priorities).
    We aren't all idiots or autists - we don't do this. Just because a Te user labels something as "nit-picking" doesn't make it so. If we feel strongly enough to raise an issue, it's because we know it's IMPORTANT in the grand scheme of things. Many's the time I've been ignored in favour of an often entirely arbitrary deadline, and my prophecies of failure come to pass. I like it when that happens. Te users carry on obsessing about their stupid schedules though, because they suck at learning from their mistakes and flexing and reacting to emerging requirements.
    Butthurt happens because Ti feels invalidated by the INTJ
    Simply wrong. We dont seek validation from external sources. We sometimes get frustrated, because we think they are anal-retentive dim-wits. That's as far as it goes.
    and Te feels frustrated at the INTPs insistence to comb through every little redundant piece of information (hence delaying the process of actually getting shit done already),
    already covered.
    and worse, the need to keep going through that same loop until the information is including (Ti-Si loops in INTPs seriously can drive someone to the point of banging their heads against the wall, no offense ).
    None taken. Most types make us feel like banging our heads, or more accurately, theirs, through a wall. Sometimes this is just an INTP stalling for time: you can't rush greatness. And sometimes it's good old passive-aggression. Because driving people nuts is fun for us.

    On top of that, the way in which Ti takes things apart and challenges them for being incomplete or not properly prioritised invalidates the Fi-values of the individual (which means that they in turn feel that their freedom is trampled upon) and undermines the Ni vision which causes defensiveness and stonewalling from Te,
    Wow, just kinda words really. Words that don't make sense...
    whereas the INTP will actually in turn feel frustration at the fact that the INTJ doesnt seem to want to follow protocol as to how things are done, communicated and debated, traditionally...aka SiFe.
    What??? Since when are we sticklers for protocol? Have you ever even met an INTP?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #117
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You would think... And yet if you challenge their competence (even inadvertently) you are immediately marked as a threat to their very being (since they, even more than the other NTs are so deeply invested in ideas of their own infallibility). Which is, incidentally, why they tend to choose partners that will make them feel like demi-gods (i.e. your average NFP groupie). To show them they are fallible, and even, on occasion, incompetent, is to show them a picture of their own mortality. It is holding up the mirror to the Nietzschean abyss. Hence the disproportionately vitriolic attacks/desire to crush you out of existence (sometimes, bizarrely, from my perspective, coupled with a desire for sexual conquest).
    Hot.

    True too.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  8. #118
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Anycase, I guess we had to stop derailing this thread at some point
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    . Ps are just generally more open to challenge/new information.
    /obviously

    They lose sight of the big picture and get bogged down in irrelevant details
    I disagree. I don't think many P's ime are good at looking at a video/seminar/anything like that and simply saying "I will/have broaden my span of knowledge
    from this" Especially if it's something that they've never been introduced to. They're the first ones to use thier subjective judgement for critisim.

    And how can something truly be irrelevant? If it relates...lol...it relates. everything is relative. Just becaue it's not relative to that person...because they don't want to take that particular information in at that particular time...does not mean it's irrelevant lol. <---I am just really trying to understand this "irrelevance" Ti brings up.

    Example: Amargith mentioned how we are derailing. <-- I don't understand this concept of derailing in this context. In the" big picture" we are people intrested in learning. Then somewhere in there the next level down is that we are people that like going on the internet (or whatever brings you to your computer). Then we are people that like to talk about the different personality types that have been theorized. And in all of this...we are still trying to learn and gain new knowledge. lol. If we start to find that the place to discuss this specific topic should have a thread( ie differences between NTJ and NTP's...or whatever.) then we can. So I still find it relevant to discuss what about NTJ's, pisses S off or whatever. Cause we are still talking about issues lol and learning. I don't get why all of a sudden people accuse people of derailing on here so much?(obviously not this one in specific) am I way off basis? and wouldn't one of the INTJ's say something if they thought is was derailing? I'm equating irrelevance with derailing...should I not be doing this? <---I'm genuinely looking for direction/feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Add to that that Te tends to be rather absolute when it says that this needs to be done (in order to complete the vision, which is often not mentioned as it is assumed clear to everyone) and that is a definite way to piss off an independent Ne-user, no doubt

    Meanwhile however, the fact that INTPs feel the need to nitpick at every bit of the logical process, even the parts that are not practical in reality and will actually gain you nothing tangible (and do not work towards a specific goal) piss off an INTJ

    (For the record, Im aware that Ti is going to go nuts over the holes that are to be found in my first draft, so consider this a brainstorm session )

    I think this is 100% correct. I usually leave things out that I assume are clear.(Then Ti trys to pick it apart and point out glitches or something. And I get confused cause now I never know how much I have to spell out lol) I didn't know this was Ne I was "pissing off"(insert whatever word here, "confusing" maybe?) when I do this , interesting.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
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  9. #119
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    But I did have to lol a bit because...

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What??? Since when are we sticklers for protocol? Have you ever even met an INTP?
    While subjective protocols require only scorn, if for instance we're instead talking human or equal rights....

    Male INTPs seem to strike up brotherhoods at the earliest opportunity too. They make them like clubs with.... protocols.
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  10. #120
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I would say the INTJ need to control is more toxic than the ENTJ one, because the latter are at least aware of it, whereas the INTJ need is a distortion of their self-preservation instinct, and as such, is less under their conscious control and so emerges in more distinctly crazy ways (at least in my experience). If you aren't aware of it, that's not surprising. I suppose that's what makes these threads so valuable..]
    I won't deny we have a need to control, but the thing we most want to control is ourselves and our own environment. This is related to the resistance to domination, and probably reinforced in the many of us who are sp first. I want to be in charge of what I do, how I spend my time, how I arrange my life, etc. If someone tries to make me act in accordance with their desires, they will have serious trouble. If they do not act as I think they should, I might say something if I care about them, but basically the choice is theirs -- as are the consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Granted, telling them blatantly that they are wrong and calling them incompetent, especially in public, is likely to get you the Te-boot fueled by Fi righteousness. But ultimately, they care about knowledge, truth and efficiency. Hint that you might be able to expand their knowledge on a topic they care for greatly and they are all over you to share those secrets already, hanging on your lips and giving credit where credit is due
    It is pointless to tell us that we are wrong and call us incompetent. If, on the other hand, you can actually show us how we are wrong (evidence, not an empty assertion), or show where our competence is lacking or yours is better, we will listen. If we still disagree, we will have something substantive to disagree on. I have changed my opinion on a dime when presented with facts of which I was unaware, and sound reasoning based on it. I do, after all, want to be right, and will not turn down any legitimate source of information or learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    In fact, ime, it isnt about who is right or who is wrong, in most situations, but more about who has which priorities...which is what decides your slanted view on the world. Confronting INTJs with empirical facts will definitely make them admit that they were 'wrong', but the importance, best use and priority of those facts is all up for debates.
    I would like a dollar for every time I have told someone, "yes, you are right, but we don't care about that because . . . ".

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I think this is as much my cultural heritage as anything else.

    The best thing an INTJ can do, is learn to laugh at himself and stop fearing mistakes. They get all stiff and paralysed by that fear and it turns them into total bores.
    It kind of amazes me that there are people who find their quirks endearing. I suppose it's just as well that there are...
    Culture will certainly have a significant influence. I will agree with the highlighted, too, and I am indeed grateful that my INTP does find my qualities "endearing".

    As for derailing, discussion of problems that INTJs might have in getting along with another type does not seem off-topic for a "common INTJ issues" thread.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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