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  1. #101
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are reading into this motivations that are not (always) there; or perhaps it is just some odd sort of wishful thinking. INTJs can be very opinionated, and forthcoming about speaking our minds. We refuse to be dominated, but that does not equate to a desire to dominate others. (That is more ENTJ, but only the stereotype.) Some people do mistakenly view the two attitudes as equivalent.
    Lol @ wishful thinking. Um, no. I'm no NFP. And I know when someone is trying to dominate me. (INTPs are every bit as resistant to it as you guys are, probably more so). The fact that you felt the need to qualify, tells me you understand the dynamic at least a little bit. And INTJ women are generally much less prone to this behaviour than the men.
    I think Mia called it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    3. Related to #2, fear of rejection (yeah, I said it) which leads to them being an over-the-top ass in order to retain a sense of control over the situation.
    4. Speaking of need to control… yeah, probably don’t even need to expound on that one.
    5. I knew one with a preoccupation with revenge that did not serve him well.
    I would say the INTJ need to control is more toxic than the ENTJ one, because the latter are at least aware of it, whereas the INTJ need is a distortion of their self-preservation instinct, and as such, is less under their conscious control and so emerges in more distinctly crazy ways (at least in my experience). If you aren't aware of it, that's not surprising. I suppose that's what makes these threads so valuable...

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    It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #102
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I would say the INTJ need to control is more toxic than the ENTJ one, because the latter are at least aware of it, whereas the INTJ need is a distortion of their self-preservation instinct, and as such, is less under their conscious control and so emerges in more distinctly crazy ways (at least in my experience).
    Self preservation would normally lead one to isolate themselves, wouldn't it? Or at least to hold back attachment. And these would be the comparatively benign manifestations. But apparently there's INTJs moving into the environment to exert control too? It's almost like it's NOT a reaction to something from the environment, eh.

    So are we talking about INTJs in general or INTJs in relationship with someone who rubs them against their admittedly wildly over-sensitive grain?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #103
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Self preservation would normally lead one to isolate themselves, wouldn't it? Or at least to hold back attachment. And these would be the comparatively benign manifestations. But apparently there's INTJs moving into the environment to exert control too? It's almost like it's NOT a reaction to something from the environment, eh.

    So are we talking about INTJs in general or INTJs in relationship with someone who rubs them against their admittedly wildly over-sensitive grain?
    You would think... And yet if you challenge their competence (even inadvertently) you are immediately marked as a threat to their very being (since they, even more than the other NTs are so deeply invested in ideas of their own infallibility). Which is, incidentally, why they tend to choose partners that will make them feel like demi-gods (i.e. your average NFP groupie). To show them they are fallible, and even, on occasion, incompetent, is to show them a picture of their own mortality. It is holding up the mirror to the Nietzschean abyss. Hence the disproportionately vitriolic attacks/desire to crush you out of existence (sometimes, bizarrely, from my perspective, coupled with a desire for sexual conquest).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #104
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Actually, I find that most INTJs when approached the right way, are very open to their own fallibility. Especially their emotional fallibility, in which they tend to take cues, as long as you do not threaten their right to be *them* (very Fi, that way), warts and all. With regards to their skills and competence..yes, it is something that is somewhat more sensitive as they pride themselves on that. And often rightly so. But if you walk them through your thought process, brainstorm together and ask logical questions along the way, they have often have no problem a) following your reasoning, b) actually *seriously* contemplating it and c) right there and then changing their own vision to take in the extra info you provided with your insights OR take the time after your conversation to contemplate what youve said and consequently make the necessary adjustments to their view of things.

    Granted, telling them blatantly that they are wrong and calling them incompetent, especially in public, is likely to get you the Te-boot fueled by Fi righteousness. But ultimately, they care about knowledge, truth and efficiency. Hint that you might be able to expand their knowledge on a topic they care for greatly and they are all over you to share those secrets already, hanging on your lips and giving credit where credit is due, ime

    Afterthought:

    In fact, ime, it isnt about who is right or who is wrong, in most situations, but more about who has which priorities...which is what decides your slanted view on the world. Confronting INTJs with empirical facts will definitely make them admit that they were 'wrong', but the importance, best use and priority of those facts is all up for debates. It is a difference in perspectives and yes...INTJs are *incredibly* reluctant to give up their perspective as they already have determined very early on which perspective is of greatest value to them. To tell them they are wrong to hold that perspective is...well, frankly, counterproductive. All you can do is discuss the issues with the perspective that border on the fringe, which you consider important as well and get them to re-evaluate if they can see why they could be valuable. And then, to leave them alone to decide on their own if they want to shift their perspective

    I guess this Fi vs Ti to a T?
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  5. #105
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, I find that most INTJs when approached the right way, are very open to their own fallibility.
    Approaching an INTJ "the right way" means "on your knees".

    That may appeal to you. I say, "fuck dat shit". Bring on the SciFi trauma.

    Seriously, though, they are very good/bad at perceiving slights where none were intended. Or taking an attack on their ideas personally (perhaps this is dodgy Fi, as you say). It's what makes them so unbearable in debate. I put it down to their propensity to take themselves / life too seriously and to think far too much of themselves. When I encounter such people I have an irresistible urge to burst the balloon of their pomposity. I think this is as much my cultural heritage as anything else.

    The best thing an INTJ can do, is learn to laugh at himself and stop fearing mistakes. They get all stiff and paralysed by that fear and it turns them into total bores.
    It kind of amazes me that there are people who find their quirks endearing. I suppose it's just as well that there are...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #106
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Approaching an INTJ "the right way" means "on your knees".

    That may appeal to you. I say, "fuck dat shit". Bring on the SciFi trauma.

    Seriously, though, they are very good/bad at perceiving slights where none were intended. Or taking an attack on their ideas personally (perhaps this is dodgy Fi, as you say). It's what makes them so unbearable in debate. I put it down to their propensity to take themselves / life too seriously and to think far too much of themselves. When I encounter such people I have an irresistible urge to burst the balloon of their pomposity. I think this is as much my cultural heritage as anything else.

    The best thing an INTJ can do, is learn to laugh at himself and stop fearing mistakes. They get all stiff and paralysed by that fear and it turns them into total bores.
    It kind of amazes me that there are people who find their quirks endearing. I suppose it's just as well that there are...
    I agree with the bolded. Funny enough, that is the thing that ENFPs often are capable of eliciting from INTJs, which might be the reason for their interest in us. And once they get going..they really do get going and they can be all kinds of silly. As for getting on my knees, I find that INTJs respond just fine to you standing. To cut through the metaphor, ime they in fact very much have a lot more respect for someone who will challenge them as that person will make them think...something they value. However, the way in which this is done is crucial. ENFPs tend to do this in a joking, non-serious and non-threatening kind of way, which in turn can often puzzle the INTJ, and also remind him to...well, take life a little less serious

    Other Ts are often...more direct about things which easily can lead to fierce battles. Even between ENTJ and INTJ this can happen, though they will often eventually, after taxing each other, often come to some sort of understanding. Perhaps that is also due to the fact that both parties have a lot invested in the topic. When both parties are unwilling to budge on the topic as they value that over the relationship between the two of them, then there is no reason for them to seek understanding. Since ENFPs tend to be focused on the relationship usually, they will be more open to exploring and changing on topics that are often very important to an INTJ. The few times that we do take a stance (if the INTJ has a previous rapport with us), they will consider our pov as they realize that this one is important to us. Does that mean I let them bulldoze me into submission? No. But to me it isn't *that* vital that they see things my way. I just share how I see things (and listen to their side, as it might enrich my pov), and let them figure out whether or not it has value to them. Forcing it down their throats (and that is something ENFPs and INTJs share ) is bound to get you a solid brick wall.


    As for the SiFi trauma...the kind of damage and the amount of repairs that involves, is heart-wrenching, so let's not use their tender beautiful hearts as our personal lab rat, shall we?
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  7. #107
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ENFPs are just ludicrously lovely and accommodating and perhaps the only people able to put up with their shit. That's why INTJs like them. As for why ENFPs like INTJs when they could have their pick of types? I put that down to their propensity to be masochistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #108
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Actually, I find that most INTJs when approached the right way, are very open to their own fallibility. Especially their emotional fallibility, in which they tend to take cues, as long as you do not threaten their right to be *them* (very Fi, that way), warts and all. With regards to their skills and competence..yes, it is something that is somewhat more sensitive as they pride themselves on that. And often rightly so. But if you walk them through your thought process, brainstorm together and ask logical questions along the way, they have often have no problem a) following your reasoning, b) actually *seriously* contemplating it and c) right there and then changing their own vision to take in the extra info you provided with your insights OR take the time after your conversation to contemplate what youve said and consequently make the necessary adjustments to their view of things.

    Granted, telling them blatantly that they are wrong and calling them incompetent, especially in public, is likely to get you the Te-boot fueled by Fi righteousness. But ultimately, they care about knowledge, truth and efficiency. Hint that you might be able to expand their knowledge on a topic they care for greatly and they are all over you to share those secrets already, hanging on your lips and giving credit where credit is due, ime

    Afterthought:

    In fact, ime, it isnt about who is right or who is wrong, in most situations, but more about who has which priorities...which is what decides your slanted view on the world. Confronting INTJs with empirical facts will definitely make them admit that they were 'wrong', but the importance, best use and priority of those facts is all up for debates. It is a difference in perspectives and yes...INTJs are *incredibly* reluctant to give up their perspective as they already have determined very early on which perspective is of greatest value to them. To tell them they are wrong to hold that perspective is...well, frankly, counterproductive. All you can do is discuss the issues with the perspective that border on the fringe, which you consider important as well and get them to re-evaluate if they can see why they could be valuable. And then, to leave them alone to decide on their own if they want to shift their perspective

    I guess this Fi vs Ti to a T?


    This sounds like any NTJ i feel like.

    Are you saying Fi takes ideas personally if confronted "wrong"? I agree with that if so. I take my ideas WAAAY too personally, I have to remember to stop putting things out there. But if someone was to just say "Hey there, did you ever come across this?" I would be way more open to the new information, unlike on here where people just tell you you're being too judgemental or not open-minded enough and other crap like that, even though they're looking at it from a subjective POV as well (ehem cough Ti cough cough)
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #109
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    ^ ENFP
    Are you pointing to me? *Looks behind her*


    I'm not a Perciever. *cringe* and I die trying to use Si.

    Can you explain why some people keep saying this? lol

    I have no idea how "HA HA. nice." means ENFP

    Maybe cause I refrained from saying "Wouldn't you just leave her after them though?"
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
    10w12

  10. #110
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ENFPs are just ludicrously lovely and accommodating and perhaps the only people able to put up with their shit. That's why INTJs like them. As for why ENFPs like INTJs when they could have their pick of types? I put that down to their propensity to be masochistic.
    You do realize that INTPs often snag their very own ENFP, right? Don't despair...just yet

    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    This sounds like any NTJ i feel like.

    Are you saying Fi takes ideas personally if confronted "wrong"? I agree with that if so. I take my ideas WAAAY too personally, I have to remember to stop putting things out there. But if someone was to just say "Hey there, did you ever come across this?" I would be way more open to the new information, unlike on here where people just tell you you're being too judgemental or not open-minded enough and other crap like that, even though they're looking at it from a subjective POV as well (ehem cough Ti cough cough)
    I think that it is choice of which ideas to value and why (essentially Fi) that trips Ti-users with Fi-users in arguments. Ti-users are usually the ones that are quite protective of their actual own (subjective) ideas and their truth as such...from what I can understand ( I havent really bonded with my Ti yet )

    But, see, this is what might help clear up the misunderstanding, in this case between INTJ and INTP: the different approach which comes naturally to ENFPs as Fi-users is what makes INTJs more...open to us. We value our freedom to value what we as a person consider important, so normally we naturally try to respect that in others, whereas Ti-users value their carefully put together ideas and experience it as controlling when someone tries to tell them different based on external data. Id wager (and S, correct me if Im wrong), that they consider NTJs often not thorough enough in their analysis and not inclusive enough in what to consider before forming an opinion on a topic, focusing only on the way things work instead of the way things (in the opinion of the INTP) *are*, as in are put together.
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