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  1. #1
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    Default Does never really mean Never?

    I have a question for NTP’s

    My best friend for many years is an INTP I her know her very well. In terms of relationships and friendships I never heard her say NEVER in terms of what relationships have potential to be, romantic or other wise.

    It’s something I don’t hear from P types in general, more so NP’s of which I know many. They often seem to surprise themselves a little with relationship ships twist and turn as they go with the flow. They are in general I think a little more likely to get into messy inappropriate relationships because of this, but on the plus side they are open to opportunities hat may also turn out well.

    The only time I hear NEVER is when the NTP has been hurt, but then again I’ve seen them change their mid.

    Why is this?

    When does never really mean never?

    My INFJ NEVER is FOREVER and EVER!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I would figure that never meant never, although I'm ENTJ and live in terror of wasted time.

  3. #3
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    In my experience with (at least some) P types, they throw around words like "never" more freely than I would...but it doesn't really mean "never"; in fact, it can often end up meaning "in a few weeks or months."

    I have major issues with people saying things they don't mean (if they do it a lot) so this is something that gets to me. I've certainly noticed xxFP types and especially ExFP saying it. I think they just tend to think aloud lot more and be more emotionally impetuous. But it makes me very unwilling to trust what they say...I end up kind of tuning out, and just trying to observe their actions. I have a friend who's gotten involved in some very unwise relationships. Tragically, one of the guys she was involved with ended up dying. She was like "I will never love again" (although they were actually broken up at that point and she was kind of moving on and was telling him he should too.) Now, this was obviously an extremely tragic and unbalancing situation...so I kind of get it. But literally, a few MONTHS later she got MARRIED to someone else who she didn't know that well - "he's the man I want to spend the rest of my life with." I just find that scary! I kind of gently raised that whole issue (probably insensitive of me, but I just had to) and she was like "so because E died, I'm supposed to go around with a knife in my heart forever?!" There wasn't much I could say to that, but part of me wanted to say "well, that's exactly what you told us all you were going to do, so.............."

    From my perspective, if you say "I will never do this" or "I will always do that", and then (even a short time later) you do something completely different - there are at least two problems with this. 1) Other people may have been relying on what you said and took it a lot more seriously than you did (especially if you sounded very definitive about it, even when questioned.) 2) You make yourself look like an idiot. Which personally I care about at least a little bit, when it has something to do with my word. I realise that life is not fixed in stone, people change their minds, etc. But don't say "never" unless you at least kind of mean it!

    I would just very seldom say something like "never" or "always" aloud. Sometimes I may be thinking it, but I'm aware that potentially it could change. If I were to vocalize it I would feel extremely, almost unshakeably sure. And I am seldom THAT sure (knowing the uncertain nature of life) so I just won't say it, usually.

    Probably a xxTP type and especially INTP would be less likely to say it, being both more reserved, and wanting to keep options open. I guess?

    Particularly with xxFP types, I doubt this is a communication gap which will ever be bridged between them and me. I am always going to think they are flaky and unreliable and say everything that comes into their head, and they are going to think I'm cold and calculating and rigid and judgmental. Probably neither of those are really true, but I don't know if there's a way around it.


    EDIT: Sorry, I realised this was mainly an xNTP question. Haha. It's just a question I find interesting.
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  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Probably a xxTP type and especially INTP would be less likely to say it, being both more reserved, and wanting to keep options open. I guess?
    It's possible that "never" for an INTP means, "That makes no sense, so I would never do it." But then new information could come along which could change the rational landscape of the situation, which now means "never" is not conclusive. The newly unfolding rational conclusion is more important than sticking with an outdated judgment.

    Also, we're human and sometimes want things / want to do things regardless of how "smart" they are. I mean, we do typically make rational decisions, but just because something seems like the smart and safe thing to do doesn't mean it's something we'll enjoy doing.



    Particularly with xxFP types, I doubt this is a communication gap which will ever be bridged between them and me. I am always going to think they are flaky and unreliable and say everything that comes into their head, and they are going to think I'm cold and calculating and rigid and judgmental. Probably neither of those are really true, but I don't know if there's a way around it.
    Yeah, i thnk TP has a little detachment from itself so the decision tends to stay in place longer and isn't necessarily influenced by just how one feels about it. It's like an additional external litmus check.

    I don't think either of those judgments you describe are entirely true; there is a grain of truth in them -- an inclination -- but not usually so extreme.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
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    @SilkRoad No worries. I am the same, if I mean never means never. I will never date that guy, I will never speak to you again, I will never go in that awful bar, is carefully chosen and means NEVER

    However when I say I’m never eating that much chocolate again or I’m never getting drunk again I don’t mean it.

    I take the important never decisions carefully and I mean them.

    ENTJ’s ah yes I know a couple very rigid on the never front.

    My interest in the NTP never reaction, is because recently an ENTP told me never and I can’t help but think it was an off the cuff reaction and it will flake.

    Not like I’m holding for it to flake, it’s just that it surprised me and I want to know how seriously I should take it. So that I can decide to never him, which will be forever, or weather there is a chance it will eventually flake and I would have missed n opportunity, something that I’m notorious for and need to cut out.

    In short on my other thread after months of interest and building a friendship, I was to slow to act (in my head analysis) and showed no interest to the ENTP, who had no idea how I felt, his ex swooped and now he has to deal with unfinished business from her, had has since freindzoned me but also surprisinglycome out with a NEVER.

    I’m also interested on the P type perspective of this because I want to understate why flaking happens.

  6. #6
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    In my religion, taking the word ''never'' in vain is a sin worse than doing the same with God's name.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #7

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    It makes me feel supremely uncomfortable to make such a set-in-stone decision. I don't see the point, really, since there always seems to be more information out there that can alter my perception of the whole situation. Why make up my mind about something only to have a better paradigm present itself to me?

    But if I were to be absolute in anything it would be for the sake of convenience (ex. I'm tired of having to think about what to eat for breakfast so I'll just ALWAYS make it toast and peanut butter). So, in that sense, I prefer a positive absolute (ALWAYS) as opposed to a negative (NEVER).

    Even positive absolutes, though, need not be strictly adhered to.

  8. #8
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    This is my understanding of the INTP reaction. Feelings do come 2nd place to what make sense, but when the feeling are strong enough they will take over and change the decision

    As a situations changers ‘never’ may not make sense anymore, other logical descion may result in it being flaked as feelings start to influence the situation.


    For me it doesn’t matter if the situation or the feelings changes once I made that descion haven and earth won’t move me even if not acting on it breaks my heart. If Imbreaking my heart over a never descions does occur I simply feel it swallow it and move on, i made the choice.

    Often Never comes as part of the resolution to a problem or situation, it’s how I draw a line to move on. The thing no longer becomes and option, that line of thinking has simply been removed. I will not give the time of day.

    Are you saying for NTP types, the line of thinking had been removed only for as long as that line of thinking does not makes sense?

    I understand NTP flaking more so, it makes more sense than my own way of dealing with never that leaves me open to missed opportunities and heart ache.

    For SFP FNP less so it just seem to not make sense, like it’s said without thinking off the cuff. I find that very irritating sometimes.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ness View Post
    This is my understanding of the INTP reaction. Feelings do come 2nd place to what make sense, but when the feeling are strong enough they will take over and change the decision.
    That is one possibility, yes. Or it could just be (as I said earlier) a rational decision based on current information, after which new unexpected information arrives that changes the landscape.

    For me it doesn’t matter if the situation or the feelings changes once I made that descion haven and earth won’t move me even if not acting on it breaks my heart. If Imbreaking my heart over a never descions does occur I simply feel it swallow it and move on, i made the choice.
    I actually very much am the sort who will stick with a promise/commitment I have made, to the very ends of my abilities. It is a desire to be dependable, be consistent, be true, be honest. I am very dependable and will put myself through terrible hardship without even letting others know, if I feel I have responsibility for a given situation.

    However, The times I have remained inflexible when I've insisted on being "consistent" and not changing a past decision that I have come to see to be a bad one have been some of the most horrific, depressing parts of my life. If rationality is determining that a particular choice was bad (not just "not as good as could have been" or "neutral" but actually "bad"), then perpetuating the bad choice forward is a mistake for me, at least. My entire life feels compromised. There seems to be no point in inflicting misery on myself and others simply out of a desire to be consistent.

    Often Never comes as part of the resolution to a problem or situation, it’s how I draw a line to move on. The thing no longer becomes and option, that line of thinking has simply been removed. I will not give the time of day.
    yeah, that's J functionality in a nutshell -- you get closure so that you can move forward. It's something that pervasive P's are terrible at. even when I try to get closure and draw lines, I keep erasing them if the need seems great enough. It is very very difficult to me to draw a permanent line, because P's feel most comfortable and honest when they leave themselves free to adjust to an unfolding situation rather than being set in stone permanently. you might as well set our feet in concrete blocks and throw us in a lake.

    Are you saying for NTP types, the line of thinking had been removed only for as long as that line of thinking does not makes sense?
    That is what I would say. Lines of possibility get tossed because they don't make sense. If later they DO make sense, then they are activated again. So it's not really flaking in the sense you originally meant it... although I think flaking does and can exist.

    I think FP can seem a little more flaky in the sense it's more difficult to find the objective through-line -- the criteria by which the decision changes is internal to the person in question, rather than discernable and replicable from outside. (T logic is more impersonal, F logic more personal.)

    I understand NTP flaking more so, it makes more sense than my own way of dealing with never that leaves me open to missed opportunities and heart ache.
    I find it hard watching the IFJ people I've loved sometimes; it has always seemed to me that you lock yourselves on a particular path and then rob yourself of some possibilities and potential happiness because you can't let go and manuever in a new direction. Opportunities for love or whatever else are missed simply because you didn't want to change course, rather than because the opportunity wasn't a good one.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
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    I don't understand why when a P changes their mind that it is such a negative action and must be because the person is flaky.

    If I am being pushed to make a decision based on the information I currently have, is it so bad that when new information is presented that I make a new, different, and perhaps better decision?

    Life is built on these moments. Choose however you want to rule your life but don't sit in judgement over those who do things differently. No way is the best for all situations and both are required at times to navigate the world.

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