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  1. #61
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Hey! This is suppose to be the "INTJ Hater's" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retz View Post
    Being fallible is an advantage. If you can't see when you are wrong you obviously can't correct yourself.
    We already covered that. Often INTJs will simply "shift" themselves into being right. That way they never have to admit to themselves that they were ever wrong.

    By taking something like fallibleness in people in that light the emotional response of feeling bad about it is much less powerful and you are less likely to have the negative effects from your initial failure.
    I don't think a lot of INTJs see it that way. If they did then they wouldn't be so insistent on never appearing wrong, at least in their own minds.

    All perspective is, is the distortion that comes into effect when your brain examines things. Without it personality wouldn't exist and being able to understand it and control it is a huge advantage in my opinion.
    That is an interesting way to put it. Although, it isn't "if" a person controls perspective, but "how" they control it. Everyone has the capacity to control their perspective, but I notice many INTJs twist their perspective to preserve their ego, which seems to often put them on the verge of psychosis, if not narcissistically delusional.

    Though being INTJ I must just be distorting my own perspective (which is the result of natural distortion) into thinking you can benefit by correcting yourself and taking failure as a strength over a weakness.
    Ah, but the question is if that is how you actually behave. If you are actually continually aiming to never be wrong, but you believe that you are always "correcting yourself and taking failure as a strength over a weakness," then you are indeed living in a distorted reality. It is often the case with INTJs, that they genuinely believe that they are acting one way, when in reality they are acting another. They believe they are "correcting themselves" when in reality, they are actually aiming to never be wrong. However, I don't know enough about you to say if that is true in your case.

    Though of course your opinion comes from the idea of people not acknowledging their mistakes in the first place. Which if it is the case of course they can't use their own fallibility to their advantage.
    That is true. Of course, the problem with many INTJs isn't "acknowledging mistakes" but realizing they are making them. If they are behaving one way, but continually shifting reality in their mind so they believe they are behaving another way, then they will never realize that they are even making mistakes. If they don't realize they make them, then they can never acknowledge them. Hence, it can be a waltz with psychosis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #62
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Are you sure that you're not just seeing an INTJ behaving badly socially? You know, as they are apt to do.

    An INTJ may realize that they said something wrong and be so embarassed that they desperately try to save face by pretending that it wasn't a mistake. Even though they knew it was wrong, well, to a lot of INTJs being wrong is something that leads to a lot of torment -- a lot of friends and family exploiting the fact that they were wrong once, showing it off as a badge of honor. They know they're wrong and they don't want to be reminded of it.

    Still a personality flaw (maybe if they didn't try to cover up mistakes so much like this, people wouldn't feel like they could exploit this as weakness?), but not quite the the one you're thinking of.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Are you sure that you're not just seeing an INTJ behaving badly socially? You know, as they are apt to do.

    An INTJ may realize that they said something wrong and be so embarassed that they desperately try to save face by pretending that it wasn't a mistake. Even though they knew it was wrong, well, to a lot of INTJs being wrong is something that leads to a lot of torment -- a lot of friends and family exploiting the fact that they were wrong once, showing it off as a badge of honor. They know they're wrong and they don't want to be reminded of it.

    Still a personality flaw (maybe if they didn't try to cover up mistakes so much like this, people wouldn't feel like they could exploit this as weakness?), but not quite the the one you're thinking of.
    Well this is the "INTJ Haters" thread. I'm only making generalizations from intuitive leaps based on what I have observed from online individuals who identify themselves as INTJs. It disturbs me that some of these individuals seem to genuinely believe they have not made any mistakes, to the point of seeming delusional about how they actually relate to reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #64
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well this is the "INTJ Haters" thread. I'm only making generalizations from intuitive leaps based on what I have observed from online individuals who identify themselves as INTJs. It disturbs me that some of these individuals seem to genuinely believe they have not made any mistakes, to the point of seeming delusional about how they actually relate to reality.
    Or maybe this is just me, mind you. Whenever I'm wrong about something completely obvious I have a tendency to turn beet red and shut down because I know that other people will perceive the failure as 'cute' and it will completely ruin my credibility for the next few days, and will provide the observers with embarrassing stories about me for years to come.

    The fact is is that if you're only speaking from online experience, it may be somebody trying to avoid this, but online you can't see the blushing or hear the wavering of their voice.

    I have a feeling that INFJs would have an easier time being wrong with grace than an INTJ.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I have a feeling that INFJs would have an easier time being wrong with grace than an INTJ.
    Perhaps. Of course I am never wrong, so it's never an issue for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #66
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Perhaps. Of course I am never wrong, so it's never an issue for me.
    Seriously, that is what makes it difficult for me to judge such a flaw. I cannot remember an instance in which I was undoubtedly wrong on a point.

    But I'm pretty young yet, so it'll happen eventually...I guess.

  7. #67
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    I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #68
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.
    No, both of their major flaws are in the 'magical perspective shifts' that they can do. The shift has nothing wrong or right about it, as in wrong or right have nothing to do with anything involved with the shift, but it's obnoxious for other people involved. Most people either shift the object or refuse to shift and simply go head-to-head, while Ni insists on the seamless shift of one's self, which makes the INJ appear terribly flawed or arrogant to the outside world.

  9. #69
    Junior Member umop_3pisdn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.
    I'm sure both are controllable, to some degree. There are some things I'm alright with being wrong about. There are some other things that make me go Beet Red like Haphazard said. Often my reaction, to a realized wrongness, is to totally lock up in shame and self disappointment, and I completely lose my sense of competence or "footing" in my life. At the time it can feel sort of devastating, depending on the specifics surrounding it.

    But, in my case, I eventually learned that ignoring my mistakes wasn't doing me any favors. Though the idea of owning up to some things still makes me want to flee, sometimes...

    I don't think we're necessarily always right. I've put forth some baseless arguments just for the hell of it (usually in my moments of stress/imbalance). Often, in these times, I just feel like being contentious for the hell of it, and I don't put much thought into my reasonings, and I reduce outside/ more sensible views as being "stupid" So in my case, I don't think I'm always right. I usually like to try and estimate my percentage of potential accuracy, except in moments where I just don't care enough about things to maintain this practice. I've entertained some pretty vague or sketchy notions, at times, and for no apparent or coherent reason. And often this fills me with a sense of shame or regret. But I tend to recognize this possible tendency. I've become a bit more cautious about some of my more head-strong qualities, and in general have become more even tempered and understanding since those days. But that's due to some spiritual-ey things I underwent when I was younger, where I got a bit more in touch with my "core" and the feelings of weakness and helplessness I used to try to bury.

    So, I don't know. I think at first, for many INTJ's their CC only harms them socially (Closed minded certitude, thanks for the term, Economica). I admit part of it is image consciousness. I don't like the idea of me being a person who puts others out, or is a pain to deal with. I'm into the whole self improvement thing, and I'm not entirely set on holding on to my current personality/habits. Some things can just be unpleasant in certain contexts, not everything is suited to every situation. Social situations aren't entirely based on the correctness of opinion or argument. Respect and kindness tend to be more conducive. I mean, most people don't discuss controversial topics in lighter or more social situations. I think this is generally logical. Especially, as has been said before, if someone holds a strong conviction as INTJs often do. Conviction is very controversial. Part of us always expects a person to be led astray by conviction, perhaps lead to their own demise by it. Another part of us raises it to mystical heights, where conviction can lead a person to overcome overwhelming adversity, or whatever.

    Blah I'm totally going on a tangent. Sorry, I tend to do this. The point is, I'm open to the possibility of being wrong. It can potentially make me more humble, and humility is something I respect very much. Since I hold to it in this idealistic fashion, I have more of an internal basis to put forth the effort in being more open to being wrong or flawed. I suppose it does kind of act contrary to some familiar aspects of my thinking, but if I have a higher philosophy supporting it, then it becomes much easier to aspire to more humility, in my thought and action/conduct.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    No, both of their major flaws are in the 'magical perspective shifts' that they can do. The shift has nothing wrong or right about it, as in wrong or right have nothing to do with anything involved with the shift, but it's obnoxious for other people involved. Most people either shift the object or refuse to shift and simply go head-to-head, while Ni insists on the seamless shift of one's self, which makes the INJ appear terribly flawed or arrogant to the outside world.
    Hm...interesting point. I think such a readily observable phenomenon needs a name. I hereby declare that such 'magical perspective shifts' will henceforth be known as "OmNi Shifts". Mainly because it seems to be restricted to Dominant Ni types. Combined with closed minded certitude, OmNi Shifts can be exceptionally dangerous to an individual's psyche.

    It seems clear to me that most INXJs are almost always going to shine themselves in the best possible light regardless of how they actually behave. But this is simply an example of "having your cake and eating it too," because they never have to admit that they are violating the principles they claim to uphold as long as they can OmNi shift their behaviors.

    I could therefore argue that I'm the type of person who is always "open to the possibility of being wrong," when I simply always OmNi shift my way out of any discussion where I am wrong so I don't have to acknowledge that I was wrong. Therefore in my own mind, I didn't violate my principle "being open to the possibility of being wrong," even though I was wrong and I simply shifted my perception to avoid acknowledging it. It seems to be a perfect ego defense mechanism and the only downside is INXJs can't OmNi shift other people's perceptions so they end up looking arrogant as a result.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

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