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  1. #111
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    People tend to be the most critical of self... especially true for NTs.

    Only self is with us at all times, and can see our every fault.

  2. #112
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    INTJ's have an inflated ego. That may be their biggest weakness. I think it causes many of them to do sort of manipulativeish things like try to mask being wrong with a "thats what I was aiming for" or "I knew that would happen" type excuse to avoid simply being wrong, but it doesn't really work.
    I would make a single change here, and say that they tend to have an inflated *intellectual* ego but other than that, Agreed!!!

    I must say, I find it kind of Quut the way they often refuse to admit when they've made a logical or, shock-horror, systematic error in their assessment/analysis of something.
    `
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    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #113
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I would make a single change here, and say that they tend to have an inflated *intellectual* ego but other than that, Agreed!!!

    I must say, I find it kind of Quut the way they often refuse to admit when they've made a logical or, shock-horror, systematic error in their assessment/analysis of something.
    Usually we can realize that there is an error somewhere but admitting it would mean loss of credibility. And credibility is EVERYTHING. It causes INTJs to do some crazy things -- like stick with plans that they know aren't working. They feel the need to save 'credibility' with people so that they can use it later when they need to convince somebody of something they know they won't believe (but is true, because Ni says so) so any failure is UNACCEPTABLE because it mars the perfect record and thus all of the credibility we have and all credibility we'll ever have in the future. They will say that they don't know anything about something that they know they don't know anything about to prevent loss of credibility. If they admit that they don't know in the first place, the credibility can't be harmed because they had admitted it before.

    It doesn't take much to make us admit that there is a problem somewhere but to make us own up to our own mistakes and show a little humility takes a good, harsh beating.

    It sounds like a wild guess but I have a hunch that this struggle for credibility is one of the INTJ's most marked traits. Somebody tell me if I'm too far off the mark.

    I don't know if I'm with most INTJs when I dream of the day when I'm good enough at what I do so I can get away with as much eccentricity as I desire to show...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #114
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    CC, I agree with you that it is inflated intellectual ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Usually we can realize that there is an error somewhere but admitting it would mean loss of credibility. And credibility is EVERYTHING. It causes INTJs to do some crazy things -- like stick with plans that they know aren't working. They feel the need to save 'credibility' with people so that they can use it later when they need to convince somebody of something they know they won't believe (but is true, because Ni says so) so any failure is UNACCEPTABLE because it mars the perfect record and thus all of the credibility we have and all credibility we'll ever have in the future. They will say that they don't know anything about something that they know they don't know anything about to prevent loss of credibility. If they admit that they don't know in the first place, the credibility can't be harmed because they had admitted it before.

    It doesn't take much to make us admit that there is a problem somewhere but to make us own up to our own mistakes and show a little humility takes a good, harsh beating.

    It sounds like a wild guess but I have a hunch that this struggle for credibility is one of the INTJ's most marked traits. Somebody tell me if I'm too far off the mark.
    Thats really interesting. Do you see this as a flaw or neutral or good, or what?

    It's interesting because it's sort of the opposite of how NF's often work, theoretically -sacrificing reputation for the sake of honesty rather than sacrificing honesty for the sake of reputation. I think that what you described could cause serious problems though... you don't just do soemthing wrong, but you pull people down with you when it doesn't work out and you didn't fix it and admit it was flawed when there was time to prevent or control the damage.

    But it's fascinating because both the NF and INTJ things are deeply rooted in perfectionism!

    I don't know if I'm with most INTJs when I dream of the day when I'm good enough at what I do so I can get away with as much eccentricity as I desire to show...
    This is a fascinating point, too. I sort of live the opposite way; eccentric, good at what I do, but not given the propor credibility (although it's not like I get much opportunity do anything serious when around other people in the lunch room, so the fact that people soemtimes don't believe I have anything serious to say is merely a premature judgement without consideration of the circumstances we've spoken. Anyway I'm going to need to have a talk with some of my classmates to set the record straight). It sucks not being taken seriously and having people outright REFUSE to let you speak when you have something serious to say because "you never say anything serious!" when the vast majority of your thoughts are intensely serious! Fuckers. But it's not like supressing your personality is any better. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

    Why is it that INTJ's actually care about what other people think? They otherwise seem to be very independant, but now I'm getting the impression your actions can often be very much determined by other people's attitudes...

  5. #115
    Content. Content? DigitalMethod's Avatar
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    For me it is sort of different.
    Yeah, I usually assume I am right, I won't lie and say I am always right though. If I know that I know I am right, then no way I could be wrong unless you have logic behind your opinion that is superior.

    For me if you tell me I am wrong, and you have a logical reason why I am wrong, then I will accept your superior logic on that matter and sort of adapt it into my thinking, that is if it is logical.

    Often I find myself doing something emotional, hurting feelings, or doing stuff because of my desires. But if someone really sits me down and walks me through why they think it is illogical that I did that, and if it makes sense to me, I will completely agree and try to adapt that superior logical thinking on the particular subject.

    "The life of the individual has meaning only insofar as it aids in making the life of every living thing nobler and more beautiful."
    - Albert Einstein

  6. #116
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    CC, I agree with you that it is inflated intellectual ego.

    Thats really interesting. Do you see this as a flaw or neutral or good, or what?

    It's interesting because it's sort of the opposite of how NF's often work, theoretically -sacrificing reputation for the sake of honesty rather than sacrificing honesty for the sake of reputation. I think that what you described could cause serious problems though... you don't just do soemthing wrong, but you pull people down with you when it doesn't work out and you didn't fix it and admit it was flawed when there was time to prevent or control the damage.

    But it's fascinating because both the NF and INTJ things are deeply rooted in perfectionism!
    Oh, an INTJ will usually admit that there was a flaw but they won't take credit for it until they know that they are 'safe' from credibility loss. They will know full and well that they made a mistake but they will not say. If they have any brains they'll at least try to fix the problem -- secretly, if they can, just saying that 'there was an error' and going from there without admitting it.

    It's both good and bad. Bad in that it can cause them to make some of the stupidest mistakes, but good in that when that nutty idea does come along, they have enough credibility to pull it off.

    This is a fascinating point, too. I sort of live the opposite way; eccentric, good at what I do, but not given the propor credibility (although it's not like I get much opportunity do anything serious when around other people in the lunch room, so the fact that people soemtimes don't believe I have anything serious to say is merely a premature judgement without consideration of the circumstances we've spoken. Anyway :whistles. It sucks not being taken seriously and having people outright REFUSE to let you speak when you have something serious to say because "you never say anything serious!" when the vast majority of your thoughts are intensely serious! Fuckers. But it's not like supressing your personality is any better. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

    Why is it that INTJ's actually care about what other people think? They otherwise seem to be very independant, but now I'm getting the impression your actions can often be very much determined by other people's attitudes...
    INTJs care because of contingency planning. They know they might need others to carry out their plans in the future, and also, if they have 'credit' now, they may get more independence in the future.

    INTJs are very much free spirits shut in a tiny little lockbox. ISTJs do what they know, INTJs do what they know they can get away with. They may get extremely daring ideas, but anything daring needs proper consideration and planning. They want to be absolutely sure that when the next big idea falls into their laps from God knows where, they will get away with it. It's not just about thinking 'outside the box,' it's getting to know the box, understand the box, and know all of it's rules and regulations before you can break them with abandon, and at that point, nobody can stop you.

    So yes. An INTJ may know that they've done wrong, but it's not a problem until you notice they've done wrong, too.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #117
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Usually we can realize that there is an error somewhere but admitting it would mean loss of credibility. And credibility is EVERYTHING. It causes INTJs to do some crazy things -- like stick with plans that they know aren't working. They feel the need to save 'credibility' with people so that they can use it later when they need to convince somebody of something they know they won't believe (but is true, because Ni says so) so any failure is UNACCEPTABLE because it mars the perfect record and thus all of the credibility we have and all credibility we'll ever have in the future. They will say that they don't know anything about something that they know they don't know anything about to prevent loss of credibility. If they admit that they don't know in the first place, the credibility can't be harmed because they had admitted it before.

    It doesn't take much to make us admit that there is a problem somewhere but to make us own up to our own mistakes and show a little humility takes a good, harsh beating.

    It sounds like a wild guess but I have a hunch that this struggle for credibility is one of the INTJ's most marked traits. Somebody tell me if I'm too far off the mark.

    I don't know if I'm with most INTJs when I dream of the day when I'm good enough at what I do so I can get away with as much eccentricity as I desire to show...
    Some food for thought, foreign to me, yet still quite interesting. Thank you for this insightful post.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #118
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Usually we can realize that there is an error somewhere but admitting it would mean loss of credibility. And credibility is EVERYTHING. It causes INTJs to do some crazy things -- like stick with plans that they know aren't working. They feel the need to save 'credibility' with people so that they can use it later when they need to convince somebody of something they know they won't believe (but is true, because Ni says so) so any failure is UNACCEPTABLE because it mars the perfect record and thus all of the credibility we have and all credibility we'll ever have in the future. They will say that they don't know anything about something that they know they don't know anything about to prevent loss of credibility. If they admit that they don't know in the first place, the credibility can't be harmed because they had admitted it before.

    It doesn't take much to make us admit that there is a problem somewhere but to make us own up to our own mistakes and show a little humility takes a good, harsh beating.

    It sounds like a wild guess but I have a hunch that this struggle for credibility is one of the INTJ's most marked traits. Somebody tell me if I'm too far off the mark.

    I don't know if I'm with most INTJs when I dream of the day when I'm good enough at what I do so I can get away with as much eccentricity as I desire to show...

    That really nails it. But being very good at using that trait is more of an ENTP thing.

  9. #119
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    The only thing wrong with an INTJ is Ni.

    For them, having an argument (as well as... nearly everything else) involves some form of "where's waldo"

    You can change the scenery, and the people all you want, but that little mother fucker will pop up... eventually they'll find a place for him.

    It's nearly impossible to prove an INTJ wrong because they favor such broad abstractions. True, that might be a good thing, but what they obsess over, are often so broad that they're meaningless, except in a few places.

    It's even worse with EN_Js though -- I will say that. The problem I have with the Ni, isn't the Ni itself, but the overconfidence (supplied by Je) a they have in it.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #120
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    The only thing wrong with an INTJ is Ni.

    For them, having an argument (as well as... nearly everything else) involves some form of "where's waldo"

    You can change the scenery, and the people all you want, but that little mother fucker will pop up... eventually they'll find a place for him.

    It's nearly impossible to prove an INTJ wrong because they favor such broad abstractions. True, that might be a good thing, but what they obsess over, are often so broad that they're meaningless, except in a few places.
    Well said!

    Muahahaha. I'm an INTJ without much Ni. I win!
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

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