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  1. #31
    Junior Member the_STRATOSPHERE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200
    What I don't understand is why you feel a need to participate in humanity as a whole, including the ones you can't relate to all, and not just be among friends. I would think most people seek out friends they can relate to, not people who work differently and make them uncomfortable.
    I have had, and still have ample oppertunities to cloister myself among certain groups, especially more "intellectual" groups. I have reveled in this in the past, and continue to revel in being around other NTPs. The question really is not whether to do that at all, but whether to do it exclusively. Why not do both? If anybody needs more information about how other people operate and feel on a contextual level it is those with the most tendency to generate big ideas (NTPs) that may affect humanity, that very group of people that I can "cloister" myself among.

    I'm not really trying to be friends with everyone, and such a thing isn't really possible, but I am trying to be able to relate with more people-thats all. An empathic ability is important to have now and I realize that.

    Also, you might be confusing goodness with truth. A person without truth can be good (which I think might be what you witnessed), and a person without goodness can know truths. They are not the same thing.
    Yeah absolutely true, and I have neglected to remember that in this situation. However, there is some causal relationship between the two that can present itself in certain times. Also, I am used to the second case occuring but not the first. Plus, it gets rather complicated; the second case is easy to imagine, the first isn't. Someone without truth begs the question, "do they know the difference between good and evil?" Or "do they know good?". If not, then I would say it is more of a case of innocence, and not true goodness. If so, they would have to know just the subset of truth that pertains to morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by sriv View Post
    Why? Analyzing is cool.
    Well here is some analysis for you; you just contradicted yourself. Can you see why? If not, you had better work on your analytical ability some more before you can interject anything meaningful into a conversation about the benefits of being analytical.

  2. #32
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_STRATOSPHERE View Post
    Well here is some analysis for you; you just contradicted yourself. Can you see why? If not, you had better work on your analytical ability some more before you can interject anything meaningful into a conversation about the benefits of being analytical.
    Heh heh, I'm glad you saw that.
    Reyson: ...If you were to change your ways, I'm sure we could rebuild the relationship the two of us once shared.

    Naesala: Oh no, that I could never do. You see, humans are essential to the fulfillment of my ambitions.

    Reyson: You've changed, Naesala. If this is the path you've chosen, I've nothing left to say.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_STRATOSPHERE View Post
    If anybody needs more information about how other people operate and feel on a contextual level it is those with the most tendency to generate big ideas (NTPs) that may affect humanity, that very group of people that I can "cloister" myself among.
    That's part of it, but I think NTPs need the most information on empathizing with others because NTs in general usually have the hardest time understanding others, because in STs usually the Sensing functions guide the Feeling functions into fruition, while Intuitive functions really don't do that. I haven't gone through something like your situation and probably never will because of an Fe dominant mother, but my dad says he has gone through a phase like this before. Many others have said the type of advice I would give, but I would just like to note there are only two roles that really need to know more about others.

  4. #34
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_STRATOSPHERE View Post
    Until that is, I met someone; this person is not a romantic interest, so don't put me in that box. This woman, probably an ISFJ, is nothing like me. Very culturally involved, non-intellectual, concrete, essentially "normal", or so I thought. She is also one of the most kind, considerate, caring, peaceful person I have ever met.

    At first, I thought that I could classify her morally, which should be easy to do. Most people that seem extremely kind have alternate motives which can be discerned soon enough using any thought tool (Rand, Utilitarianism, Machiavelli). I turns out, I couldn't find a contradiction in her behavior; for the most part, she seemed genuinely good. Perhaps its cultural then? Perhaps she was brought up in an exceptionally good home, or community, etc?

    I realized that my theories were failing. Moreover, I realized that I couldn't understand where she, or anyone else was coming from, how they felt. What her experience was. In trying to understand her goodness, I was undermining it by objectifying her.

    I want to "feel people out" now. I want to empathize...but I don't think I can. I can't help but fit them in some sort of framework, and it makes me feel ashamed that I have become that alienated from humanity. I feel trapped in all of my theories and wonder if its too late.

    I wonder what my pursuit of the "truth" has made me? Less or more human? What have I become? The truth has led me to a truth that defies its own persuit....

    Any help from any personality, is greatful...
    Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
    I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.

  5. #35
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    Everyone here has given very good advice that you should take to heart. Especially when it comes to developing your emotions. I'm 19 years old, and my mother is probably in the INT complex, and my experiences with her drove me to severely suppress my emotions. But I quickly started to come back with a "heart", so to speak, when I reached out to different types of people trying to get along. I spent a lot of my high school years exploring the usually non INTP side of things, which I think has greatly aided in my own balance. But then I learned about MBTI and my type, and soon realized thereafter that I was still suppressing some emotions, particularly love and empathy. It kinda led me recognize just how hollow and desensitized I'd somehow become. So with much conscious effort, prayer, and meeting new people, I've come a long way in recognizing the weaknesses psyche/personality, accepting them for what they are, and making the determination to develop them. But I still have my typical INTP dark side urges at times, lol.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
    I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.
    Please, once again, could you avoid sounding condescending? As an INTP I am quite aware that emotional awareness of self is a major weakness for me, but I can quite easily detect my own annoyance at being equated with some sort of cute child fumbling around or a puppy who just can't quite be house trained but is just trying so hard.

    Simplicity does not equal simple or childish.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_STRATOSPHERE View Post
    ..I think empathizing can be learned. I think some people are born with it intuitively, but once you know how someone thinks, and what they're reactions to things are, you can hold that construct in your mind if need be.
    Yes, there is an empathy that is more instinctive -- you don't have to actively think about it, you "feel" how the other person feels and understand them.

    I think INTPs will be more mentally active in their empathy. It's a combination of Ti + Ne and a reference to Si past experience -- you create a model of the person inside, attach experienced emotions to it where appropriate, and then you can guess probably what the other person is feeling and put yourself in their shoes.

    It's okay to approach it that way, the end result is still pretty good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Please, once again, could you avoid sounding condescending? As an INTP I am quite aware that emotional awareness of self is a major weakness for me, but I can quite easily detect my own annoyance at being equated with some sort of cute child fumbling around or a puppy who just can't quite be house trained but is just trying so hard. Simplicity does not equal simple or childish.
    I guess we could talk about how cute and endearing it is to watch an INFJ remain detached from a situation and logic through it instead of just applying their moral judgments to it...?

    That being said, I think it was just poor wording on KLessard's part and not intentional to project that sort of attitude.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    "May god grant me the strength to be less independant, but do things my way"
    ~The INTP's MBTI Prayer (or at least and approximation which I recall as close enough)

    Stand alone, be alone. Choose your team mates however you feel/ think is best but don't imagine that one person can be enough for everything, that is rare indeed.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I guess we could talk about how cute and endearing it is to watch an INFJ remain detached from a situation and logic through it instead of just applying their moral judgments to it...?

    That being said, I think it was just poor wording on KLessard's part and not intentional to project that sort of attitude.
    Y'know I'm sure that's true, inasmuch as what KLessard wanted to say, but this is the second time I've seen them reach for this analogy in a discussion about INTP emotions (and got called out about it then). Once is my misunderstanding of intent and belief, twice is their misunderstanding of intent and belief.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  10. #40
    wholly charmed Spartacuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Wow, I'm glad to read this testimony of an INTP's prise de conscience about emotions. I certainly don't think it's hopeless. I read in one INTP analysis that it just takes longer for them to reach emotional maturity.
    I also know an INTP girl who's slowly reaching out to emotion sometimes, and it looks and sounds like a child's emotions. It's very endearing and your ISFJ probably finds you just as fascinating as you find her. INTPs are VERY fascinating to me (I'm INFJ, something close to ISFJ), and I can say F people will not write you off or judge you for being unemotional at times. They will only be hurt if you are unconsiderate about it.
    Maybe sometimes it seems childish because it's insincere. Especially if pressed for an emotional response, and unable to FLEE the scene, an INTP can imitate what she imagines is required. Because the response seems childish/ silly to the INTP when she views it in others, you get a childish/silly reproduction from her, too.

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