• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NT] Christian NTs

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,244
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
How does this differ from the Christian God (not the existence of Jesus)? Aren't many of the old testament stories very similar to those found in older pagan religions?

There's overlap between the stories to some degree (many culture have flood stories, all cultures have creation stories, for example). But monotheism wasn't really the standard at the time; usually there were a variety of gods in a pantheon, to explain how the world worked.
 

Metamorphosis

New member
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
3,474
MBTI Type
INTJ
I guess I'm confused on the idea that paganism requiring faith is a bad thing and that somehow Christianity requires less faith and that the existence of a Christian God has more evidence.

Although, I'll admit that the term pagan is so broad as to be almost meaningless in any comparative discussion.
 

Redbone

Orisha
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
2,882
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Asatru or Wiccan or Odenian?

None of those. American Indian (ancestral) in origin.

I guess I'm confused on the idea that paganism requiring faith is a bad thing and that somehow Christianity requires less faith and that the existence of a Christian God has more evidence.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
None of those. American Indian (ancestral) in origin.

Yeah, I didn't get that either.

Ah of course, sorry, I associate the word pagan with the pre-Christian "old religion" of Europe and Celtic nations.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I don't think NTs are any less religious than any other MBT group.

I think according to most MBTI studies of religious affiliation, NTs (especially ENTPs) are significantly underrepresented in those that identify with a religion.
This may come down to what one means by religious. I would suspect fewer NTs identify with an organized religion, due to our tendency toward independence, skepticism, and questioning authority. I would also suspect, however, that we are just as likely to be spiritual, to have interest in the questions that religions try to answer.

[Agreed.] Typically, sensational! Instant gratification from spirits (not from God) with minimal to no faith required.

...or so I've heard.

Forgive me if I'm wrong. The term has many meanings.
You are right about Paganism; the term does indeed mean different things to different people. Many people misunderstand the nature of Pagan faiths. Misunderstanding can lead to distrust and even fear, so "Pagan" will mean something quite different to these people than to Pagans themselves.

You are wrong, though, about the rest. The "pop-wiccans" Lark referenced often think Paganism is about sensationalism and instant gratification, involving neither God nor faith, but those who bother to explore it find nothing could be further from the truth. These are some of the misconceptions that persist, partly due to centuries of attempts to vilify pre- or non-Christian spirituality; partly due to the misunderstanding mentioned above.

Erm, my problem is that it's pretty much 100% faith. I don't think that there's any evidence at all for Paganism. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
All religions at their best are a combination of faith, reason, feeling, values - the things that make us human. No religions can prove their claims through evidence. Pagans actually have more "evidence" than most since Pagan faiths tend to be rooted in the natural world: the turn of the seasons, the cycles of nature, the interrelatedness of all life on earth, etc. But it still requires belief.

How does this differ from the Christian God (not the existence of Jesus)? Aren't many of the old testament stories very similar to those found in older pagan religions?
You are correct. Another example of how the same fundamental truths transcend culture, time, and human limitations.

Although I do think there's a lot of nonsense and superstition churned out to satisfy consumer demand for neo-paganism, for instance pop-wiccans, there's some amusing episodes of Buffy The Vampire Slayer which I recall in which Willow, genuine witchcraft adept, joins a circle of pop-wiccans who're a bitchy cliche of feminazis.
You are correct about this. Pagan groups historically have kept to themselves, partly because of misunderstanding and prejudice, but also partly to deter the type of "pop-pagans" you reference. The groups with which I am familiar had lengthy "trial periods" for new members, which served quite well to separate true spiritual seekers from rebellious youth, thrill-seekers, or people who just want to look cool or trendy. Being a Pagan takes effort, at least as much as following any other religion and probably more so, because you will be doing much more of the work yourself.

I don't want to derail a thread about Christian NTs (further) by saying any more about Paganism. There is a thread in the Philosophy and Spirituality section called "Ask a Pagan" which goes into more detail, should anyone be interested.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
Its not always unfair vilification, Christianity DID supersede and repress a lot of bloody sacrificial and superstitious creeds, honest modern pagans would not deny that anymore than a christian could deny the inquisition, peasant war or wars of religion and sectarianism associated with their history
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
The Last Pagan - Dear Hypatia

...the term pagan is so broad as to be almost meaningless in any comparative discussion.

The last pagan was Hypatia, librarian of the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria. She was also a scientist, mathematician, astronomer and teacher.

But the Christians of Alexandria burnt the Great Pagan Library of Alexandria to the ground, skinned Hypatia alive and dragged her body through the streets of Alexandria.

And pagans today are merely anaemic imitations.

And just as the tragedy of history repeats itself as farce, so paganism today is farcical, a New Age farce.

You can meet Hypatia by clicking on - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSTkMYECxX4

And how can you not fall in love with the last pagan, Hypatia?
 

FireShield98

Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
455
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sp
This may come down to what one means by religious. I would suspect fewer NTs identify with an organized religion, due to our tendency toward independence, skepticism, and questioning authority. I would also suspect, however, that we are just as likely to be spiritual, to have interest in the questions that religions try to answer.

I agree with this. I don't like going to church at all (I go less than the others in my family, except for my mom because she teaches at an online college, so she has to do work all week and doesn't have time to go), but I probably spend more time thinking about it and researching it than the others in my family.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,193
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Its not always unfair vilification, Christianity DID supersede and repress a lot of bloody sacrificial and superstitious creeds, honest modern pagans would not deny that anymore than a christian could deny the inquisition, peasant war or wars of religion and sectarianism associated with their history
Christianity replaced some bloody and superstitious Pagan practices with their own bloody and superstitious practices: the Inquisition, indulgences, self-mortification rituals, even veneration of saints' relics. Both faith groups seems to have grown beyond that now. The vilification campaign I mention, however, was focused on ideas, not practices, and is already evident in the Bible. The Adam and Eve story is a classic example.
 

Helios

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
273
MBTI Type
INTP
I used to be. Then I grew up. I see religious belief of any kind as a failure to κατήργηκέναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου...
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I, too, agree with [MENTION=315]Usehername[/MENTION]'s earlier quote. :yes:

My dad is a Christian INTP 5w4. He never, ever talks about his religious beliefs in terms of denomination, but I get the impression that he is probably a non-churchgoing Episcopalian. My mom, an Episcopal church organist, was obviously much more involved with church-related activities than him (especially since weekly volunteer work got in the way of his going to church on Sundays), but looking back on everything, he was just as serious about instilling me with a particular variant of Christian values (loving your neighbor, helping the needy) as my mom -- and he worked at a nonprofit that had a vague religious attachment to it, that he would emphasize.

I think his feelings about religion are very similar to his feelings about politics -- and that the two belief sets tend to influence each other, e.g. in the form of liberation theology and Christian socialism.
 

think2much

New member
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
239
MBTI Type
intp
I do believe there's higher being but why god? How can God give life? ummm you were born cause mommy and daddy had sex. It's really not that miracle.
 

gmanyo

sswwwaagggg
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
Messages
275
MBTI Type
ENTP
I used to be. Then I grew up. I see religious belief of any kind as a failure to κατήργηκέναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου...
*κατάργηση κεναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου or *κατάργηση και τὰ τοῦ νηπίου according to Google translate.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,244
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
My dad is a Christian INTP 5w4. He never, ever talks about his religious beliefs in terms of denomination, but I get the impression that he is probably a non-churchgoing Episcopalian. My mom, an Episcopal church organist, was obviously much more involved with church-related activities than him (especially since weekly volunteer work got in the way of his going to church on Sundays), but looking back on everything, he was just as serious about instilling me with a particular variant of Christian values (loving your neighbor, helping the needy) as my mom -- and he worked at a nonprofit that had a vague religious attachment to it, that he would emphasize. I think his feelings about religion are very similar to his feelings about politics -- and that the two belief sets tend to influence each other, e.g. in the form of liberation theology and Christian socialism.[/

That sounds like where I've drifted throughout life, starting in the a situation more like your mom's, and the more I "cam into my own" and really figured out what I believed and how I wanted to respond to it, I find I have a template of values that align with general values of Christianity but I'm not really interested in the politics, the organizational aspects, the social navigation through Christian culture, I'm just interested in the spiritual essence. I feel like organized religion tries to make truth too tangible and specific and then gets attached to the symbols and rules and trappings, for me to live within it for too long.

In the culture I started in, "liberation theology" was openly called a heresy/perversion, but later I saw value in it... both that and the communal aspects of Christianity.
 

Helios

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
273
MBTI Type
INTP
*κατάργηση κεναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου or *κατάργηση και τὰ τοῦ νηπίου according to Google translate.

Google won't be able to translate Common Attic for you, I'm afraid. I don't know what the alternatives you're offering are about.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
That sounds like where I've drifted throughout life, starting in the a situation more like your mom's, and the more I "cam into my own" and really figured out what I believed and how I wanted to respond to it, I find I have a template of values that align with general values of Christianity but I'm not really interested in the politics, the organizational aspects, the social navigation through Christian culture, I'm just interested in the spiritual essence. I feel like organized religion tries to make truth too tangible and specific and then gets attached to the symbols and rules and trappings, for me to live within it for too long.

In the culture I started in, "liberation theology" was openly called a heresy/perversion, but later I saw value in it... both that and the communal aspects of Christianity.

I've got an INTP(?) friend who seems to have the same outlook in his Seventh Day Adventist career. He gets some sort of value from only certain aspects of his religion and has his own framework on how the whole thing works that doesn't agree with their teachings. Yet, he remains and even teaches Sunday School. Of course, his wife, her family and his family are very devout. He has his whole life tied into it.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,568
I've got an INTP(?) friend who seems to have the same outlook in his Seventh Day Adventist career. He gets some sort of value from only certain aspects of his religion and has his own framework on how the whole thing works that doesn't agree with their teachings. Yet, he remains and even teaches Sunday School. Of course, his wife, her family and his family are very devout. He has his whole life tied into it.

I think the majority of people are like that, not just in relation to religion but other significant belief systems and norms. Its the only way that I can in my own mind reconcile the individual and social. There's always going to be contradictions, inconsistencies and imperfection, although if there's relative congruence there's no need to throw out the baby with the bath water.
 

Helios

Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
273
MBTI Type
INTP
Ha, nice. Google is not all-powerful, I guess.

:wink:

"κατήργηκέναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου..." is taken from the famous:

"ὅτε ἥμην νήπιος, ἐλάλουν ὡς νήπιος, ἐφρόνουν ὡς νήπιος, ἐλογιζόμην ὡς νήπιος· ὅτε γέγονα ἀνήρ, κατήργηκα τὰ τοῦ νηπίου"

which the NIV renders "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."



Not exactly a translation I think very good, but you get the idea.
 

JAVO

.
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
9,053
MBTI Type
eNTP
I don't think NTs are any less religious than any other MBT group.

I think our religious poll numbers are artificially lowered due to the NT personality description attracting those who idolize and worship NT tendencies. I think they assume these characteristics are supreme and correct and just and that these characteristics are incompatible with religion. This is ironic, of course, because they're actively worshiping a Jungian identity invention instead of a bread-and-butter genre of god. This means that, perhaps, NT types are more religious than any other personality group.

Regardless, I'm an NT Christian and there are tons of us. We're not rare.
Great point!
 
Top