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Thread: Christian NTs

  1. #81
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And how is confidence in your perception different from belief ? I mean for an ethical and morale guidance I dont need to necessarily stick to religion, there are a lot of books who talk about it as well.
    The simplest distinction is that confidence is based upon objective evidence that, while insufficient to establish something with certainty, is enough to support a course of action. Belief, by contrast, typically rests on some subjective consideration: I like it, I feel good about it, it aligns with my values. If I have confidence in someone, it means I have a reasonable certainty that they will perform in a certain way, be reliable/dependable, able to accomplish something. If I believe in someone, it is more a commentary on their intentions, sense of ethics/morality/integrity/etc. If I say "I have confidence in my beliefs", I mean that the ideas/principles/etc. that seem subjectively "right" to me are backed up by a decent amount of evidence. I realize other people sometimes use the words interchangeably. Obviously the two are related, but not the same. I realize other people sometimes use the two words interchangeably, but I do not.

    You are right, though, that religion is not the only source of moral or ethical guidance. I have made that point myself on several threads now.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    And I think and I am not alone with that that the american church has become as fundamental as its enemies its opposing and I am just having a careful eye on that and hope it wont play out bad for you. Cause I like you and am not your enemy.
    You are correct here as well. American churches are often as hard on believers in other religions as on atheists. Christian vs. Christian arguments can get as heated and nasty as Christian vs. other spirituality, or believer vs. atheist. So much for following our "higher selves".
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #82
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    While I disagree with the point you made in the other post, that was a pretty clever way to use the passage.
    Thanks, but why do you disagree with the point I made? Believing in benevolent "super natural" beings is something we can forgive in children, but not so much in adults. That millions of people are walking around in my country truly believing in, for example, "angels" worries me.

  3. #83
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The simplest distinction is that confidence is based upon objective evidence that, while insufficient to establish something with certainty, is enough to support a course of action. Belief, by contrast, typically rests on some subjective consideration: I like it, I feel good about it, it aligns with my values. If I have confidence in someone, it means I have a reasonable certainty that they will perform in a certain way, be reliable/dependable, able to accomplish something. If I believe in someone, it is more a commentary on their intentions, sense of ethics/morality/integrity/etc. If I say "I have confidence in my beliefs", I mean that the ideas/principles/etc. that seem subjectively "right" to me are backed up by a decent amount of evidence. I realize other people sometimes use the words interchangeably. Obviously the two are related, but not the same. I realize other people sometimes use the two words interchangeably, but I do not.

    You are right, though, that religion is not the only source of moral or ethical guidance. I have made that point myself on several threads now.
    Ya, glad you mentioned the differences that was my point basically. In german there are like 4 or 5 words for confidence and everyone aims at a different one of the definitions you mentioned

    You are correct here as well. American churches are often as hard on believers in other religions as on atheists. Christian vs. Christian arguments can get as heated and nasty as Christian vs. other spirituality, or believer vs. atheist. So much for following our "higher selves".
    You all definitly dont have to get me on the wrong page here. I do respect all kind of beliefs. Like I believe in StarTrek, other people believe in God and both concepts share a certain transcendence. I think of a religion as a guidance to your personal development and I myself have even read some passages of the bible, even learnt some by rote for my confirmation. Even if someone would give me the power to ban all religion from the World, I would not use it cause I understand the necessity for it and the impact it has on peoples life. And I understand that a lot of people just feel better in their lifes believing in religion.

    The only thing I am afraid of is that the belief in religion could blind people. In my opinion religious people should be something like the Jedi in StarWars. they should have the strength to carry on their word against all odds but they shouldnt turn aggressive if someone is not of their opinion. of course sometimes you have to defend your ideals, even with force; I just come from a nation who has made very very bad experiences with following people who have ideals and that has made me grumpy and critical of ideals.

    So what I am asking for is mutual respect. I respect religion and religion should respect my iconoclastic agnosticism.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I never do that, but I know that in America religion has a strong grasp on politics and society, while in my country for example it has virtually no influence. Due to that being so I have to weave the blanket over everything to encounter for the dynamic of the situation.

    I personally and that I have stated often, am a big fan of the morale and ethics religion shows and wish for more people in society to share that wisdom. I just dont believe in a God or an afterlife. And I think and I am not alone with that that the american church has become as fundamental as its enemies its opposing and I am just having a careful eye on that and hope it wont play out bad for you. Cause I like you and am not your enemy.
    i wish it was not the case, but there it is. a place where there is supposed to be a separation of church in state is fraught with an intermingled weaving of crap between them both.

    i don't subscribe to any church or religion that tells me how to vote, and i don't follow any politician because of their faith. the church i attend lost about half of its congregation (about 1500-2000 people) back in 2004 because the (ENTP ) pastor refused to endorse the GOP candidate publicly. that's the kind of church I can follow.

    having said that, i think it is a big mistake to lump large groups of people together. it's just so easy to do that and then to draw conclusions based off of that. i don't see a productive resolution to conflicts based off "well, this group of people do X", etc.

    no hard feelings from me on this topic by the way. i like hearing your perspective.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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  6. #86
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    i wish it was not the case, but there it is. a place where there is supposed to be a separation of church in state is fraught with an intermingled weaving of crap between them both.

    i don't subscribe to any church or religion that tells me how to vote, and i don't follow any politician because of their faith. the church i attend lost about half of its congregation (about 1500-2000 people) back in 2004 because the (ENTP ) pastor refused to endorse the GOP candidate publicly. that's the kind of church I can follow.

    having said that, i think it is a big mistake to lump large groups of people together. it's just so easy to do that and then to draw conclusions based off of that. i don't see a productive resolution to conflicts based off "well, this group of people do X", etc.

    no hard feelings from me on this topic by the way. i like hearing your perspective.
    thats good that you choosed that unpolitically and not motivated by a politician. my fear tho isnt changed by that and I only hope your faith is never been tested to an extreme.

    I think there is a lot of cultural difference here and I just hope for the best. and that the scenarios I make up in my mind wont come true.
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  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The same you most prolly will hear from a heroine abuser.
    I doubt it since its a different story altogether.

    You're trying to employ the quote from Marx about religion being an opiate, the rest of that quote goes "the heart of a heartless world", although you'll sedom hear that.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is actually why I find evangelizing atheists more annoying than evangelizing religious people... because the evangelizing religious people I've met don't try to argue with you as relentlessly. They don't cite Richard Dawkins at you nonstop.

    ?????
    I'll second that, I'm first among those who despise nuisance preachers and religious evangelism, although I think most of the worst variety of whatever underlying psychological character profile is at work there has migrated to atheism.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    A drug users first arguement is that he does drugs because he cant stand reality. Dont understand why you put question marks on that
    I didnt see that stated in any of the numerous threads about drugs launched by all the drug using atheists on the forum. Religion isnt escapism.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I have a different opinion on this. As long as people wage wars because they have different "personal choices" in religion, I feel its my democratic right to tell them that they are stupid.
    You have that right wholly or in part because of those same wars which people choose to fight because they have different personal choices in religion.

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