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Thread: Christian NTs

  1. #61
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post


    "κατήργηκέναι τὰ τοῦ νηπίου..." is taken from the famous:

    "ὅτε ἥμην νήπιος, ἐλάλουν ὡς νήπιος, ἐφρόνουν ὡς νήπιος, ἐλογιζόμην ὡς νήπιος· ὅτε γέγονα ἀνήρ, κατήργηκα τὰ τοῦ νηπίου"

    which the NIV renders "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."



    Not exactly a translation I think very good, but you get the idea.
    While I disagree with the point you made in the other post, that was a pretty clever way to use the passage.
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  2. #62
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I'd be curious as to the rationalization of a spirtual NT to be honest. A type characterized by the rational worldview they impose upon the world seems, on the surface, at odds with belief in a being that doesn't make itself present empirically. When I was younger, I certainly "hung on" to the thought of a deity as I began distancing myself from an upbringing that included relgion but ultimately I simply had to cast it aside if I was being honest with myself.

    I've always wondered, is it a fear of chaos? A need for the Universe, Life, and Everything to have been designed, to have a purpose? Or something else? Not condemning or judging. Just curious.



  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'd be curious as to the rationalization of a spirtual NT to be honest. A type characterized by the rational worldview they impose upon the world seems, on the surface, at odds with belief in a being that doesn't make itself present empirically. When I was younger, I certainly "hung on" to the thought of a deity as I began distancing myself from an upbringing that included relgion but ultimately I simply had to cast it aside if I was being honest with myself.

    I've always wondered, is it a fear of chaos? A need for the Universe, Life, and Everything to have been designed, to have a purpose? Or something else? Not condemning or judging. Just curious.
    Its because the beliefs are eminently rational, now, I'm not going to cite you chapter and verse of ALL the MANY sources out there which support and indicate this point of view, I believe if you were interested rather than stating your own contrary view we'd not be having this discussion, you'd be reading the sources instead.

    The reality, what you describe as rationalisation, is that the belief IS rational, now you dont consider that to be the case, you consider the belief to be irrational, which I would consider a rationalisation, that's were the logger heads and impasse is.

    You're not condemning or judging but you're repeating the implication, again, that all deist or theist ideas are based upon fear of chaos or purposelessness, that's an atheist conceit.

  4. #64
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its because the beliefs are eminently rational, now, I'm not going to cite you chapter and verse of ALL the MANY sources out there which support and indicate this point of view, I believe if you were interested rather than stating your own contrary view we'd not be having this discussion, you'd be reading the sources instead.

    The reality, what you describe as rationalisation, is that the belief IS rational, now you dont consider that to be the case, you consider the belief to be irrational, which I would consider a rationalisation, that's were the logger heads and impasse is.

    You're not condemning or judging but you're repeating the implication, again, that all deist or theist ideas are based upon fear of chaos or purposelessness, that's an atheist conceit.
    My word choice at the end of my post certainly does imply that and I should have taken the time to avoid such language...however I don't see the belief as being eminently rational, and while I don't need to be cited chapter and verse, simply the line of reasoning or one link would suffice. I guess it all comes down to first principles. I suppose I'd ask, what problems does God's existence satisfy that a naturalistic worldview could not also satisfy, and satisfy more simply.



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I guess it all comes down to first principles. I suppose I'd ask, what problems does God's existence satisfy that a naturalistic worldview could not also satisfy, and satisfy more simply.
    Those who believe in a just universe tend to be happier. It provides a sense of security. Don'tcha think?

  6. #66
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Catholic. I was raised by wolves and Jesuits, so not much choice there.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  7. #67
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I guess it all comes down to first principles. I suppose I'd ask, what problems does God's existence satisfy that a naturalistic worldview could not also satisfy, and satisfy more simply.
    The theist doesn't necessarily need to engage in an explanatory approach. She could, say, give a deductive argument instead.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    My word choice at the end of my post certainly does imply that and I should have taken the time to avoid such language...however I don't see the belief as being eminently rational, and while I don't need to be cited chapter and verse, simply the line of reasoning or one link would suffice. I guess it all comes down to first principles. I suppose I'd ask, what problems does God's existence satisfy that a naturalistic worldview could not also satisfy, and satisfy more simply.
    Put very simply any God whose existence could be proven in a way which would satisfy atheists would be no God.

    Now there's a possibility that you could be interested in Paul Tillich's Courge To Be hypothesis that in the wake of existential doubts and the "death of God" believers and non-believers need to move beyond the previous conceptions which cant be God because they ARE projections of the human mind and imagination. Although I doubt it.

    I know you dont believe its rational because you've "reasoned" yourself to that point, its become a belief and you're interested in finding evidence to support that rather than raise new doubts, doubts like those which caused you to abandon deist or theist views in the first place. There's no insult in stating that observation, I dont believe its based on courage or realism though as you do, that is merely flattering the atheist perspective, which if it is correct it shouldnt need anyway.

  9. #69
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'd be curious as to the rationalization of a spirtual NT to be honest. A type characterized by the rational worldview they impose upon the world seems, on the surface, at odds with belief in a being that doesn't make itself present empirically. When I was younger, I certainly "hung on" to the thought of a deity as I began distancing myself from an upbringing that included relgion but ultimately I simply had to cast it aside if I was being honest with myself.
    "The rational worldview they impose upon the world"? This suggests that the world is not itself inherently rational. Much that can be observed empirically is rational, though, and follows principles that we can understand and use to predict future events. There is also the realm of chaos, events that at least so far have not yielded to such analysis. I do not understand chaos theory well enough myself to know the extent of its useful predictive ability, or whether it is mostly human wishful thinking.

    Though we will never prove the existence (or nonexistence) of God, that doesn't mean there is no evidence. At least my personal spirituality is informed by experiences and observations, not just fears and imaginings. Granted, this evidence is pointing to something non-corporeal, but I accept other intangibles on limited evidence as well, usually because it is practical and useful to do so. Even established scientific theories are never really proven. We just accept them and use them until they are shown to be false or we find data they cannot account for. We think there was a big bang, and that species evolve through natural selection, not because we witnessed the actual events, but because these concepts explain the phenomena we are able to witness directly. Scientists continue to refine both theories as we learn more.

    I do not mean by this to suggest that some day, we will be able to provide a material, physical explanation of everything attributed by believers to "God". Over the course of human history, we certainly have replaced many supernatural explanations with natural ones, and we probably will continue to do so. I believe, though, that there will always be more to the universe, and to existence, than the material aspects that can be explained through scientific analysis. But this, too, is a matter of belief.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #70
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    An inventor who doesnt believe in his invention, is no inventor. If a scientist would only go by the facts he knows, progress would be slow or non-existant cause leaps in thinking made possible by him believing in them being right, wouldnt occur.

    So I see no reason why a NT wouldnt be a believer. I just dont see a reason why it must be called God.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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