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Thread: Christian NTs

  1. #111
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    ^

    Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

    ENTJs
    The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

    INTJs
    The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

    ENTPs
    The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

    INTPs
    INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
    Haha, great stuff.
    I hate when people say ''I don't think type matters in this case blah blah blah'', even though different personalities tend to deal with everything in different ways.
    Of course mbti alone will never be enough to make any strict rule, as there are many other factors involved, but it can nonetheless be used to reach statistically significant conclusions.
    The 90% part sounds far fetched though.
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    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  2. #112
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    And faith is extremely hard for the 10% or so, of us!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Haha, great stuff.
    I hate when people say ''I don't think type matters in this case blah blah blah'', even though different personalities tend to deal with everything in different ways.
    Thank you!

    The 90% part sounds far fetched though.
    You could be right. The demographics would also play a large part in this. Anyway what I posted is from my real life experience combined with a little bit of forum member (to be honest) observations.

    Of course mbti alone will never be enough to make any strict rule, as there are many other factors involved, but it can nonetheless be used to reach statistically significant conclusions.
    Yes it is. I live in a Nontheistic 'religious' society. So the nontheistic religious INTPs tend to believe, agree and try to adhere to the philosophical aspect of it. But are rather skeptical of the description of Devas (Gods/higher powers). So are they religious? or are they not? Or could they not be categorized?

    But, from what I have observed (and I do observe a lot of things and add to it I am nosy and intrusive) INTPs are the least likely to believe in a higher power. And this usually starts at an early age.

  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The Church, when you think about it, has a very enlightened view of sexuality which corresponds to perrenial ideas about human suffering, much suffering is caused by sexual licentiousness, promiscuity in "normal" first world contexts, where the individuals have a secure base in supportive, interested and supportive parents or extended family, can still cause individual shame, scandal, addiction, ruined relationships, emotional breakdowns, misery and suffering and that is before the problems of rape, date rape, human trafficking, prostitution, child exploitation, the so called sex trade or their accompanying miseries are considered or factored into it.
    When I think about the RCC and sex, "enlightened" is not the term that comes to mind. More like backward and repressed. When healthy, consensual sexual intimacy between adults is overregulated and made to seem shameful outside certain narrowly defined conditions, it only encourages the expression of those normal human desires in less healthy circumstances. Shame and scandal are not "real" consequences of sexual interaction; they are artifacts of culture. Go to another continent, or fast-forward another generation, and they are muted or gone entirely.

    The gender bias that pervades the church is an integral part of its attitude to sex, and a key contributor to much of the misery and suffering you mention, especially on the part of women. The sexually autonomous woman is used in the Bible as a metaphor for when the Israelites were not faithful to God, the ultimate sin. For generations, the church practiced a ritual called the churching of women, in which a new mother was "cleansed" after childbirth, making her fit to return to church. The idea of childbirth as spiritually dirty is just perverse, and a great example of how the church has long denigrated things of the body as shameful, perpetuating a body/spirit separation that is both harmful and illusory.

    I once read a book by the much-beloved Pope John Paul II in which he stated it was wrong for a husband and wife to abstain from sex for awhile in order to avoid conception. This type of micromanagement and related guilt regarding sexuality seems anything but enlightened. Yes, condoms will not eliminate sexism, rape, and anarchy in troubled areas. Medical supplies will not stop wars and terrorism either, but we don't deny them to those who live in such conditions. While addressing the root causes is necessary, it is only humane to address the symptoms as well.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #114
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    Yes. My cousin is INTP. He is a judo master in apologetics.
    Yeah, that was basically my main focus in Christianity for years too, and the first thing I was very much interested in, since I was trying so hard to sort everything out for myself. I still own a lot of the books I bought over the years, explaining the background of passages, comparisons to other religions and cultures, and discussion of "controversial" topics or interpretations.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  5. #115
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Thank you for your points, I've got some thoughtful replies for you which I hope you will read in the spirit of open and genuine enquiry as opposed to polemical, vitriol and prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    When I think about the RCC and sex, "enlightened" is not the term that comes to mind. More like backward and repressed. When healthy, consensual sexual intimacy between adults is overregulated and made to seem shameful outside certain narrowly defined conditions, it only encourages the expression of those normal human desires in less healthy circumstances. Shame and scandal are not "real" consequences of sexual interaction; they are artifacts of culture. Go to another continent, or fast-forward another generation, and they are muted or gone entirely.
    OK, let us then consider which society is happier, that which is as you suggest "backward and repressed" and is typified by things such as courty love, platonic relationships, convivality and norms of respect and honour between sexes and one which is totally licentious, the going "to another continent" or "fast forwarding another generation", in one perhaps someone is neurotic because they have internalised social norms as their super ego, they could experience internal conflicts but in the other rape, domination and objectification is the norm. That really is enlightenment? Truthfully?

    What are the narrow parameters and what are the less healthy circumstances which correspond to belief in monogamy and fidelity? Erasmus wrote at great length in praise of marriage, he was contrasting it with the hierarchy's emphasis upon celibacy, Hans Kung has written in praise of eros in contrast to agape love, which is also in contrast or conflict with the present and previous Pope's teaching but it is a diversity of position within the same school of thought. A little different from "anything goes".

    The gender bias that pervades the church is an integral part of its attitude to sex, and a key contributor to much of the misery and suffering you mention, especially on the part of women. The sexually autonomous woman is used in the Bible as a metaphor for when the Israelites were not faithful to God, the ultimate sin. For generations, the church practiced a ritual called the churching of women, in which a new mother was "cleansed" after childbirth, making her fit to return to church. The idea of childbirth as spiritually dirty is just perverse, and a great example of how the church has long denigrated things of the body as shameful, perpetuating a body/spirit separation that is both harmful and illusory.
    I've no problem with that, the subordination of women within the RCC is not exactly as most simplistic assessments make it appear, for instance there are religious orders for females within the RCC church, which to me makes the question of female ordination to the priesthood a null and void question. There is also no evidence that Jesus professed or practiced any of the patriarchial norms, he had a number of women principle among his followers, he also appeared to a group of women when he rose from the dead and it is their testamony, not believed at first, which was the first witness to the possibility of his resurrection from the dead. God did choose to be incarnate as a man and not a woman when he came to earth as Jesus but I would consider that a realpolitik reflection of the norms and culture of the day.

    I once read a book by the much-beloved Pope John Paul II in which he stated it was wrong for a husband and wife to abstain from sex for awhile in order to avoid conception.
    Really? What was that book? I just ask because this vague reference is out of keeping with what I know is the teaching of the Church and it would be a surprise to me to discover that there was any official comment in contradiction of this teaching which had not come down to practicing RCs attending Church on a weekly basis but which has been circulated to non-believers who are critical of the sexual morality and teaching of the church instead.

    This type of micromanagement and related guilt regarding sexuality seems anything but enlightened.
    Please clarify for me here what your objection is? That there is advice or guidance per se? The advice given by the RC church, that fidelity is a good thing, that monogamy is a good thing are often echoed by secular sources, that family planning is preferable to lust and licentiousness? If you're going to object to advice or guidance per se then I suspect that you'll have to put Cosmo or similar sources in the dock too.

    Yes, condoms will not eliminate sexism, rape, and anarchy in troubled areas. Medical supplies will not stop wars and terrorism either, but we don't deny them to those who live in such conditions. While addressing the root causes is necessary, it is only humane to address the symptoms as well.
    I'm not sure how you begin to eliminate those things while advocating or supporting the distribution of some of the means or paraphrenalia, it's a little like supporting the distribution of firearms to bank raiders while having a conscientious objection to bank raiding.

    There is also some very explicit teaching by Pope Benedict, in published sources (Here is a link, just in contrast to you vaguaries about the last Pope's teachings: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Things-Pope-...9649325&sr=8-1), that the RCC aims to form consciences but not involve itself in politics. Therefore unless the authorities have themselves sought to prohibit the availability of contraceptives, as the ROI did once I remember, they will be available and it is a matter of individual conscience whether or not the believers choose to use them or not.

    What is absolutely clear is that if someone is going to engage in sexual intercourse and refuses to use condoms because the RCC prohibits the use of contraceptives they can not be that worried about RCC teaching about sex in the first place and it is merely a pretext, the problem I would suspect is greater and possibly to do with sexism in a broader national sense.

  6. #116
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Roman Catholic Church caused sexual misery for the laity for centuries so it was no surprise when the laity turned on the Church at the first opportunity.

    And it was the revelation of widespead pederasty within the clergy, the perversion of justice, and the blaming of whistleblowers, that gave the laity the opportunity to strike back.

    The response of the clergy to this blow struck by the laity was pure defensiveness and the blaming of others.

    And as a result half of the laity have left the Church.

    And worse, it was the adult half of the laity that voted with their feet, leaving behind a defensive clergy and a child-like laity.

  7. #117
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    I don't believe in NT Christians

  8. #118
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    ^

    Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

    ENTJs
    The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

    INTJs
    The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

    ENTPs
    The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

    INTPs
    INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
    I neither belief in a 'higher power' nor do I go with things by my own interpretation. I try to see the world rational and try to see 'what is' and that is what I believe in. The scientists, who brought me in their books and teachings to think so, share the same belief in reason and rationality.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #119
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I neither belief in a 'higher power' nor do I go with things by my own interpretation. I try to see the world rational and try to see 'what is' and that is what I believe in. The scientists, who brought me in their books and teachings to think so, share the same belief in reason and rationality.
    And I swear to the God I worship that I sincerely believe that you are an ExFP.

    Nothing absolutely nothing that you say (the long posts, not the short once which cannot be analysed) I could relate to Ti (can see Ti in). I see no Ti in you at all. Infact when you do make a long post it reeks Fi and melts any Ti around it.

    Your posts are usually how you personally feel about things.

    But of course, if there is ever a poll about your type a majority of people would vote ENTP.

  10. #120
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    And I swear to the God I worship that I sincerely believe that you are an ExFP.

    Nothing absolutely nothing that you say (the long posts, not the short once which cannot be analysed) I could relate to Ti (can see Ti in). I see no Ti in you at all. Infact when you do make a long post it reeks Fi and melts any Ti around it.

    Your posts are usually how you personally feel about things.

    But of course, if there is ever a poll about your type a majority of people would vote ENTP.
    This's because I am living together for 7 years now with an infp, what has changed me. it would be an honor for me to call myself an enfp but regarding my idealism (which is pragmatism) and my tactfulness, I'ld feel like a black man going to a Ku Klux Clan meeting in the NF domain.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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