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Thread: Christian NTs

  1. #101
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Religion doesnt exist simply because its socially useful or utilitarian and its not simply a form of relief, a lot of the worlds religions were pioneered by hermits and wandering sages who did not preach to others or seek to spread their teachings at all, still others were inspired by messages from teachers to withdraw from social intercourse and live solitary existences.

    There is also much more to religion than ethics and I would suggest that it is total and utter confusion to associate superstition with religion properly understood. What I think you mean is that you believe it would be civilising if religion transformed into humanism, that is incredibly reductive of what religion is and the role it plays for individuals.

    Like I said before it is not merely utilitarian or socially useful, I would be inclined to agree with Jung in Modern Man In Search of His Soul, that religion corresponds to deep seated psychological needs, which are often not active in the first phase of life at all, hence all the young atheists who have arisen in this generation I would suspect, and this is not a consequence of impending or approaching mortality, its about accomplishment, achievement or transcendence of other life goals and challenges.

    Jung considered the whole process to correspond to the activation of archetypes, I'm not sure that's the whole story, cultural pressures and popular thinking can have a bigger impact than even the most self-proclaimed non-conformist would acknowledge or believe and I think it takes time before people are able to think about these things without prejudice.
    religion surely corresponds to a lot of psychological needs, otherwise its success couldnt be explained. but a religion that does say abortion is evil, a pope that tells africans that condoms are evil and a religion that prohibits sex before marriage isnt a humane guidance, but a ritual rulebook.
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  2. #102
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    religion surely corresponds to a lot of psychological needs, otherwise its success couldnt be explained. but a religion that does say abortion is evil, a pope that tells africans that condoms are evil and a religion that prohibits sex before marriage isnt a humane guidance, but a ritual rulebook.
    I think that's a very simplistic and reductive argument to suggest that religion is purely psychological projection.

    Do you understand any of those ethical arguments you are critical off there? I understand that you find them objectionable but exactly why?

    The church's teachings in relation to sexual life and sexual fidelity predate, and I believe could even post date, abortion, artificial contraception and norms of promiscuity and licentiousness.

    Abortion is never anything other than evil because it can not be something which someone deliberately chooses, it is a contingency and only ever is a contingency, it is not something which someone would deliberately want to have and plan as their purpose or final outcome of sexual intercourse. Now I believe it is possible to consider it a necessary evil but it remains an evil rather than a positive. This was the view of the founder of planned parenthood you know, who considered it an inhumane and horrific reality existing only as a consequence of inequality and failures in thinking and planning.

    Contraception, artificial contraception, I'm not sure has been condemned as evil, if it has been it has not been condemned purely in the African context and I would suggest it is racist to focus only upon that. It is not endorsed by the RC church because it is considered a violation of natural law and natural contraception is considered acceptable by the RC church. Would contraception be the answer to AIDS epidemics and population problems in those nations? I'm really not sure, not sure at all, were sexism, rape, incest and prevailing lack of law and order are the norm I really doubt that the cause of explosions in STDs and population can be reduced to the availability of condoms.

    The Church, when you think about it, has a very enlightened view of sexuality which corresponds to perrenial ideas about human suffering, much suffering is caused by sexual licentiousness, promiscuity in "normal" first world contexts, where the individuals have a secure base in supportive, interested and supportive parents or extended family, can still cause individual shame, scandal, addiction, ruined relationships, emotional breakdowns, misery and suffering and that is before the problems of rape, date rape, human trafficking, prostitution, child exploitation, the so called sex trade or their accompanying miseries are considered or factored into it.

    Sex is not central to religion either, not even those which would be described by many modernists as "sex positive", ie encouraging sexual experimentation, do not put it at the centre of things, which is very different from even pop culture. I think this makes it very hard to understand or sympathise with, especially when it is being considered from the perspective of an "outsider" who may have elected to adopt a position of opposition to begin with.

  3. #103
    Riva
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    Default Everyone needs faith!

    Seriously people would feel lost and depressed without it. Maybe not depressed but I am failing to find the words to describe it.

  4. #104
    Riva
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    Default The most religious of all NTs?

    ^

    Anyway I have noticed that xNTJs are quite religious. Out of the NT category ENTJs are the most religious, followed by INTJs>ENTPs. And the least likely to be religious are the INTPs and are the most likely to be atheist out of all MBTI types.

    ENTJs
    The ENTJs tend to not question systems. They seem to find better ways of doing things. They are not usually questioners of things but rather efficiency builders. This applies to their religion too. They would not usually question their own religion. They would simply find some practices unworthy, outdated and would probably blame the followers for inventing those rather than blame the religion itself. Therefore would refrain from some practices which they believe are unworthy or not practice the religion at all.

    INTJs
    The INTJs are like pendulums. They are either extremely religious or not religious at all. It's not that they are not religious (believes in a higher power), but that they totally condemn religion (higher power) according to their own realizations based on experience and discoveries.

    ENTPs
    The ENTP ones tend to be irreligious (doesn't take religion too seriously) than totally condemn the belief of a higher power. They tend to live by their own explanation/interpretation of 'their religion' rather than totally condemn it untrue.

    INTPs
    INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.

  5. #105
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    I'd like to point out that many of the most well-known "atrocious killers" - Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot - were not particularly religious, and were all open promoters of atheism. Although there is evidence to say that Hitler was a Christian, there is also evidence otherwise, and Stalin is "worse" in terms of kill count. In fact, Stalin literally has the highest kill count of any leader ever. Mao might actually be worse if you look at how many people died as the result of his policies.
    Hitler was far from an open advocate of atheism. I fail to see the relevance here, however: was Stalin's (supposed) atheism the cause of his actions?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    And don't tell me that "they aren't real atheists", because I guarantee you that the Christians that committed the crusades and other acts of violence were not real Christians. I don't discount atheism because of the atrocities done by atheist leaders, neither should atheists discount religion for the atrocities done in its name. I think the claim that religion is bad due to all the atrocities done in its name is "dubious at best". In fact, I think it's complete bullshit.
    How convenient: whenever a Christian acts objectionably, she is not a "real Christian", but whenever she acts charitably, she is of course a "real Christian".

    Nevertheless, you are overlooking a subtle distinction here. There is nothing to show that Stalin, for example, did what he did in virtue of his atheism. Yet violence carried out by the religiously inclined is frequently predicated, explicitly, on the idea that to do that violence is demanded by the relevant god, or something similar.


    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    And you say my claim about happiness is unfounded, but it's actually well founded in research, and more than just one overblown study. This does nothing to prove or disprove religion of course.
    I said no such thing. Regardless, a link to a Wikipedia article will not persuade me of anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    While I will admit that many Christians have some dumb political views, not all of them do. To be quite honest, many of the Christians that I know are liberals and couldn't give two shits as to whether or not gay marriage was legalized, and would actually fight against the mistreatment of homosexuals. I'm practically a socialist myself. Go look at this topic that I started.

    The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong, but most Christians I know don't judge homosexuals at all. The kindest people that I've met are religious, usually Christians. I once had a gay guy like me (romantically, I mean). I didn't care, and I'm still his friend, because I think he's an awesome dude. Truth be told, it probably would have been more awkward if a girl liked me who I didn't like. Most homosexual men I've met seem nicer than the straight ones anyway.
    If only the tens of millions of conservative Christians in the US, and indeed elsewhere, were inclined to be so tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Going along with your "white men" point, I don't think that white men are more charitable than other races. But religious people honestly do seem more charitable than non-religious people. And I'm not just guessing here; studies show that religious people are significantly more charitable than non-religious ones. Although upon further research, some of my claims about religious charities were wrong. At the same time, though, even in that article, the writer has very few statistics, and I do think that Christians' donations are inspired by their beliefs.
    It is probably not possible to know whether religious people are more charitable than the non-religious. It should be noted that even if the former are more generous than the latter, this is no evidence that their charity is a consequence of their religiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    Not according to your worldview. Hell, I don't think that anything should be considered objectively "better" or "worse" according to your worldview. I'm not saying that this makes your beliefs untrue, but if you want to be consistent with the logical progression of your worldview, than Mao and Stalin (and Hitler and Ghengis Kahn and the crusade leaders) did nothing wrong, objectively speaking.

    On top of this, if you have decided for yourself, subjectively, that it is "better" to try and help people and improve others' lives as well as your own, false beliefs might actually be better.

    I'm not indifferent towards truth; I think that truth is very important. I'm just saying that according to your beliefs it really shouldn't mean anything.
    Since you know almost nothing about me, I am puzzled as to how you have come to know what my "worldview" is, assuming I even have one (I don't). You also falsely assume I referred to rectitude rather than some other type of virtue. Besides this, you merely assert that on atheism an "objective" morality is impossible, but offer no demonstration of why this should be thought to be the case. I also don't know what it means for "truth" not to "mean anything".

    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    As a final point, none of the thing I'm saying here are trying to prove or disprove any worldview. I'm just saying that none of your claims refute religion, and many are inconsistent with your beliefs or are outright false.

    Where was I trying to "refute religion"? I am only contending here that religion is generally disadvantageous to society. That theism is false I treat as axiomatic, and I in fact do not take theism sufficiently seriously to make its truthfulness discussable.

  6. #106
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    INTPs
    INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
    Where do you pull this junk from?
    Over 90%?
    "Condemn"? That's a pretty strong word to describe a type that is more apt to discern inherent ambiguities.

    To be honest, I hate these kinds of posts more than I hate religious thought.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Since you know almost nothing about me, I am puzzled as to how you have come to know what my "worldview" is, assuming I even have one (I don't). You also falsely assume I referred to rectitude rather than some other type of virtue. Besides this, you merely assert that on atheism an "objective" morality is impossible, but offer no demonstration of why this should be thought to be the case. I also don't know what it means for "truth" not to "mean anything".
    Response coming later, but I did want to say sorry for claiming to know your worldview, because I don't. Derp.

    I'm going to bed soon, though, and a response will take awhile.
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    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

  8. #108
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Where do you pull this junk from?
    Over 90%?
    "Condemn"? That's a pretty strong word to describe a type that is more apt to discern inherent ambiguities.

    To be honest, I hate these kinds of posts more than I hate religious thought.
    Fine, discern due to ambiguities of religion it is then, INTPs are.

  9. #109
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    INTPs
    INTPs almost always (more than 90% of the times) condemn the belief of a higher power.
    And faith is extremely hard for the 10% or so, of us!
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    And faith is extremely hard for the 10% or so, of us!
    Yes. My cousin is INTP. He is a judo master in apologetics.

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