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[NT] Why INTJs -can- be more intellectual than INTPs

Mycroft

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Again, the emphasis is on the "can". INTJs can also be narrow-lived, step-counting trolls whose in-born intelligence is rivaled only by their bigotry and defensive, hasty conclusions.

That said, they can also be some of the most intellectual people around, surpassing even INTPs, who, it must be said, have the greatest inclination toward intellectual pursuits.

This is because: the intellect, like the physical body, is something that must be fostered and attended to. The analogues between physical and mental training are striking.

For whatever reason, an uncommon degree of drive attends the introverted intuitive's mindset. This drive will often lead INTJs to make the long-term effort required to develop their minds and rational abilities.

As I've stated, the INTP mindset is, if descriptions are correct, unquestionably the most inclined toward this development. But just as the SP mindset, which places kinaesthetic intelligence at the forefront of the psychological processes, inclines members of that group toward prowess in physical pursuits, this inclination must be acted upon and fostered for it to bear fruit.
 

Salomé

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Oh goody. I certainly felt another "why INTJs iz smartest thread!" was long overdue.
 

Mycroft

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That's not really the claim I'm making :huh:

(In fairness, this is a something of a fluff thread, but I'm entitled to one periodically.)
 

Totenkindly

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It's not really a controversial point. INTx's both easily veer into intellectual or acadamic pursuits and can become quite knowledgeable.

...Debating further, though, seems rather pointless.

Hey, look, Salome wants to take over my old position as mod. Enjoy that headache!
 

Salomé

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I'm more interested in being a PITA than being a MOD.
I appreciate that it can be difficult to distinguish between those two roles.
 

Rasofy

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Conclusion:
Can they be? Yes.
Will they be? Maybe.
:D
Kidding...I get what you're saying. INTJs tend to wanna learn things with a specific purposes, while INTPs place more importance on general intellectual growth...but that doesn't mean every INTP is gonna be less pragmatic and more intellectual than every INTJ and vice versa.
 

Mycroft

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True, maybe it will get moved? It seemed like this was a fitting enough area of the forum, but I can see how that's debatable.

Anyway this is something that's always made me wonder about the descriptions. From the way they're described, IN_Js should have no use for the acquisition of knowledge since everything will well up magically from some poorly-described form of "intuition", but this is pretty clearly not the case.

From the INTPs and INTJs I've known, I'm beginning to take stock in the idea I've seen around that types will tend to be able to use their secondary function in its introverted and extraverted fashion just about equally.
 

Totenkindly

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From the INTPs and INTJs I've known, I'm beginning to take stock in the idea I've seen around that types will tend to be able to use their secondary function in its introverted and extraverted fashion just about equally.

I think the binary i/e forms are just extremes and set up as such just to explicitly define them as a baseline; but realistically people are liable to use blends of the traits, since we all have to survive and need to have all those sorts of traits. There just tends to be differences from individual to individual as to how much they enjoy/develop a particular aspect of a broad function. (For example, I had issues with using my rationality in a directive manner; the Ti informative aspect was what I strongly preferred, whereas Te is much more directive, and I managed to avoid having to use T directively for a long time.)
 

Zarathustra

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INTJs can also be narrow-lived, step-counting trolls whose in-born intelligence is rivaled only by their bigotry and defensive, hasty conclusions.

Yes.

I remember having similar thoughts about you when we had a discussion about the existence or non-existence of God.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29649&p=1148910&viewfull=1#post1148910

True, maybe it will get moved? It seemed like this was a fitting enough area of the forum, but I can see how that's debatable.

I don't think this is an unfitting place at all really.

Anyway this is something that's always made me wonder about the descriptions. From the way they're described, IN_Js should have no use for the acquisition of knowledge since everything will well up magically from some poorly-described form of "intuition", but this is pretty clearly not the case.

I think the descriptions of types tend only to be useful from an elementary perspective -- beyond that, it's all about the functions.

I think a better explanation is that Ni and Se are two sides of the same coin, and work in conjunction with one another. The data that has been able to be concretely taken in via Se serves as a nutrient for which Ni can go on making its intuitive abstractions.

From the INTPs and INTJs I've known, I'm beginning to take stock in the idea I've seen around that types will tend to be able to use their secondary function in its introverted and extraverted fashion just about equally.

Frankly, and I've felt this for a long time, and the results you posted in my "Cognitive Function Results - INTJs" thread (LINK) recently seemed to confirm this: I think you're either an INTP or a particularly abnormally (not meant in a pejorative sense) developed INTJ.
 

Mycroft

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Well, INTJ was the result that cognitive functions test gave me :shrug:

Also I stand by my assertion that emotions are not a means of arriving at truth, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one I guess!

Jennifer: that makes a lot of sense, actually. I do have to wonder, though, the extent to which we can realistically expect to develop functions that are in their operations opposed without going nutty, though...
 

Magic Poriferan

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No doubt. But it's in the wrong forum.
:rules:

How is this the wrong forum? It's all about NTs and it's in the NT forum. Unless it was already moved before I asked this question.
 

ygolo

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As far as the OP, I certainly believe it to be true that INTJs can be more intellectual than INTPs. I think any type can be intellectual, and that the development of intellect comes chiefly from the product of interest and pedagogy over time. (I have this opinion pretty much about most things that people call "talent" or other such thing.)

Also, there are many different types of intellect. That is part of what makes intellectual discourse work. With too much "inbreeding" among intellectual circles, intellectual discourse can easily run into an impasse, because everyone is essentially thinking the same way.

I'm not sure, how it came up, but I believe emotions are an important part of intellectual growth.

A lot of people believe that time spent being emotional takes time away from "rational" thought and so will lead to less development intellectually. You used the analogy to physical training. Imagine what would happen if someone developed their muscles in a very unbalanced manner? Overdeveloped quads and underdeveloped hamstrings for instance.

It may be true that certain functions require mainly the use of certain faculties more so than others. But those faculties reside in a person, and if a certain balance is not maintained, the health of the person, and then the effectiveness of the faculty can be lost.
 

INTP

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Imo INTJs seem to quite likely to gather shitloads of information that is made up by intelligent people, if they learn to use this info they have gathered in smart ways, they can come up with really extraordinary discoveries and be very intellectual. Its just that quite often INTJs arent able to use this info correctly and think that they are smart because they have read about smart things and this usually comes with high ego and "im the smartest kid in the world" attitude..

INTPs on the other hand are quite different, INTPs(and ENTPs) can gather shitloads of information from the area of their interest(and most likely skim over other stuff), but put more weight on logical deduction with less trusting on learned stuff, we need to see the logic in the info we gather, so if some info doesent seem logical, its most likely false and is disgarded(INTJs build trust/distrust to the source of information, then either blindly take in the info or disregard it without thinking it at all, depending on introverted feeling judgment about the source, which is quite often quite undeveloped). Where INTPs are prone to fail is to make too big leaps with intuition and too much deduction with too little info.

I dunno if this is common with INTJs, but my INTJ friend claimed that new truths cannot be discovered via deduction, which i think is :doh: X over 9000..

When it comes to smart INTJ vs smart INTP, the INTJ will most likely shine on knowledge and INTP will most likely shine with deduction skills.
 

Zarathustra

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(INTJs build trust/distrust to the source of information, then either blindly take in the info or disregard it without thinking it at all, depending on introverted feeling judgment about the source...)

This is false.

I dunno if this is common with INTJs, but my INTJ friend claimed that new truths cannot be discovered via deduction

I used to think something like this back in college, but I've advanced beyond that perspective since. I now know that new truths can be discovered by deduction. The reason he's thinking this is probably because while differentiating Ni and Te, there might be some implicit rejection of Ne and Ti (and this holds true for differentiation of all function-attitudes wrt their opposite-attitude function-attitude -- hence your own spite for Te). The truth is that NTJ and NTP thinking are just creative in different ways.

Ti seems to work within confines of previously accepted first principles, and seems to be creative and discover new truths by discovering the deductive implications of those first principles. Ni is far more suspicious of first principles, and works kind of in the opposite direction, by revealing how tacit/subconscious/unrecognized first principles are inadequate in a particular situation. By doing so, Ni develops the ability to "metaperspectivize", which allows for an openness and creation of new first principles, some of which might lie outside the realm of purely objective affairs and are more just new and different ways of thinking about subjective things, some of which might be novel and accurate ways of approaching objective matters, and some of which might just be utter nonsense (these are new ways of looking at objective things that aren't properly fact/reality-checked by Te and Se).

When it comes to smart INTJ vs smart INTP, the INTJ will most likely shine on knowledge and INTP will most likely shine with deduction skills.

I agree on the deduction skills, cuz that's Ti's strength, but I'm not sure whether "knowledge" is the best term for what INTJs shine at. I think what you're pointing to is the more empirical approach of our Te, as opposed to the more rationalistic (i.e., deductive) approach of Te. But I think you're missing out on the more inductive approach of our Ni, which is where I would argue our greatest strength lies (you also never mentioned the strength of yours guys' Ne, which makes it look like you're giving a preference to T functions over N functions; seeing as how Ni is our dominant function, I think it's a pretty big thing to have missing from your thinking).
 
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FunnyDigestion

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none of yall are the true intellectuals, someone's going to turn your brains into a brainrod & use it as a crowbar. Guess what, they work for the government.
 

Zarathustra

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none of yall are the true intellectuals, someone's going to turn your brains into a brainrod & use it as a crowbar. Guess what, they work for the government.

Example 2 of mistaking your Fi for Te.

Go back to your thread on how dating "inherently" sucks.

Until you came in here, this thread was actually reasonably intelligent.

Also, there are many different types of intellect. That is part of what makes intellectual discourse work. With too much "inbreeding" among intellectual circles, intellectual discourse can easily run into an impasse, because everyone is essentially thinking the same way.

+1

I'm not sure, how it came up, but I believe emotions are an important part of intellectual growth.

A lot of people believe that time spent being emotional takes time away from "rational" thought and so will lead to less development intellectually. You used the analogy to physical training. Imagine what would happen if someone developed their muscles in a very unbalanced manner? Overdeveloped quads and underdeveloped hamstrings for instance.

It may be true that certain functions require mainly the use of certain faculties more so than others. But those faculties reside in a person, and if a certain balance is not maintained, the health of the person, and then the effectiveness of the faculty can be lost.

+1

Check the link I posted above.

This is the same thing I argued to Mycroft almost two years ago.

You and I are right, but, for whatever reason (lack of emotional development?), he feels the need to be wrong.
 

Rasofy

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none of yall are the true intellectuals, someone's going to turn your brains into a brainrod & use it as a crowbar. Guess what, they work for the government.
:greatscott:
Pshh, let us intellectuals (aka INTXs) discuss. :mad:
 

Mycroft

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You and I are right, but, for whatever reason (lack of emotional development?), he feels the need to be wrong.

Oh, this is flagrant baiting and you know it. One Lark is enough on this board. You're smarter than that.
 
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