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  1. #31
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    ^Busted
    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyDigestion View Post
    I have a contribution, about deduction. Mathematics all reduces to tautology: things equaling themselves. So nothing new is brought into existence (such as truth) & the revelations are of perspective. Math can show you reality in a new way, but nothing new is ever found. I think (woops I mean 'feel' I don't have the thinking gene) mathematics is about building new structures of perspective.
    What you said about mathematics makes sense but that's not deduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Tell you what...give an ESFP to an INTP and I promise you the "intellectual" would go out the window
    Objection!
    edit: just playing...knowing a real ESFP, they would actually love the intellectual
    Objection!!
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  2. #32
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    I dunno if this is common with INTJs, but my INTJ friend claimed that new truths cannot be discovered via deduction, which i think is X over 9000..
    He probably means that the information in the conclusion of a deductive argument is already contained in its premises, so that it offers no new information, no new truths. A logician will tell you that deductive arguments are truth-preserving.

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Jennifer: that makes a lot of sense, actually. I do have to wonder, though, the extent to which we can realistically expect to develop functions that are in their operations opposed without going nutty, though...
    Well, typically there seems to still be a ranking of priority, so that the dominant perspective uses the other functions like little retriever/work dogs. *yipyip* Without that priority level, we get people who seem unpredictable and have trouble accomplishing things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    He probably means that the information in the conclusion of a deductive argument is already contained in its premises, so that it offers no new information, no new truths. A logician will tell you that deductive arguments are truth-preserving.
    See, that's what I used to believe.

    And while I think there's truth to it, I don't think it gives the whole picture.

    First off, we don't all come to the game with the same premises (not even close, really), and, second, what if conclusions based on some of the premises that are out there have not yet been realized and/or adopted by the broader society. Both of these issues leave open the opportunity for deduction to offer new information, new truth.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    See, that's what I used to believe.

    And while I think there's truth to it, I don't think it gives the whole picture.

    First off, we don't all come to the game with the same premises (not even close, really), and, second, what if conclusions based on some of the premises that are out there have not yet been realized and/or adopted by the broader society. Both of these issues leave open the opportunity for deduction to offer new information, new truth.
    No, neither of these issues leave open the opportunity for new information from a deductive argument.

    The first issue has no bearing on the question at all, for if new premises bring new conclusions, then it is because these premises contain new information. It is not the deductive reasoning that injects new information into the argument: the argument itself is new. The second issue does not prove INTP's friend's statement wrong if it is understood as I described above, for it only holds that all conclusions must necessarily follow from the information contained in the premises so that one may draw new conclusions from old premises, but not information that is not already contained in them. You can arrange the pieces in a new way, but the pieces remain the same.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, neither of these issues leave open the opportunity for new information from a deductive argument.

    The first issue has no bearing on the question at all, for if new premises bring new conclusions, then it is because these premises contain new information. It is not the deductive reasoning that injects new information into the argument: the argument itself is new. The second issue does not prove INTP's friend's statement wrong if it is understood as I described above, for it only holds that all conclusions must necessarily follow from the information contained in the premises so that one may draw new conclusions from old premises, but not information that is not already contained in them. You can arrange the pieces in a new way, but the pieces remain the same.
    I agree with this.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    No, neither of these issues leave open the opportunity for new information from a deductive argument.

    The first issue has no bearing on the question at all, for if new premises bring new conclusions, then it is because these premises contain new information. It is not the deductive reasoning that injects new information into the argument: the argument itself is new. The second issue does not prove INTP's friend's statement wrong if it is understood as I described above, for it only holds that all conclusions must necessarily follow from the information contained in the premises so that one may draw new conclusions from old premises, but not information that is not already contained in them. You can arrange the pieces in a new way, but the pieces remain the same.
    As I intimated before, I already understood all this, so I think you're missing point.

    I'm talking about the possibility for deduction to bring new information into the world.

    One could talk all day about how a set of conclusions follow from certain premises, but if someone, or an entire society for that matter, is unable to use, or has not yet used, deduction to arrive at all of those possible conclusions, then those conclusions remain unknown to that person or that society. Deduction in this sense is an activity by which all the possible conclusions can be extracted from certain premises, but, until the activity of actually extracting all those conclusions from those premises has occurred, there is unknown information sitting out there not yet being recognized or utilized. And, in this sense, deduction can be a creative enterprise.

    Btw, how exactly is it that I became the defender of Ti's utility?

  8. #38
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I already understood all this, so I think you're missing point.

    I'm talking about the possibility for deduction to bring new information into the world.
    I was talking about how deduction works while you talk about how it can be used. The latter, however, is not what INTP seemed to have in mind when he complained about his friend's statement and certainly not what I originally replied to.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I was talking about how deduction works while you talk about how it can be used. The latter, however, is not what INTP seemed to have in mind when he complained about his friend's statement and certainly not what I originally replied to.
    And yet is an important perspective to keep in mind so that NTJs don't fail to recognize the utility of the more deductive NTP-styled thinking, as they are wont to do when they are in the process of differentiating their more inductive, NiTe approach to thinking.

  10. #40
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    I also don't know that it's accurate to say that it's not at all what INTP had in mind...

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