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Thread: truth = logic

  1. #31
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    If we're going to discuss what truth is and is not, we must first agree upon a definition for the term so that we're discussing the same thing. I define truth as "fidelity to reality".

    For example, if I state that a rock, when released from the hand, will fall to the earth, my statement is "true" in that it displays fidelity to reality. (I trust your imaginative abilities enough to believe you can come up with a converse "untrue" statement.)

    As we define truth as "fidelity to reality", it follows that truthful or untruthful statements (i.e. statements which display or lack fidelity to reality) can only be made of existents, of which reality is constituted. Therefore, as emotions lack physical existence, no statements truthful or otherwise can be made of them. This is precisely what makes them subjective.

    Even in your own example, the strength of your belief (an emotional state) of the color of my hair is irrelevant; my hair is the color that it is and the truth of the matter could only be settled by observation.
    Emotions doesent lack physical existence.

    Also like i said you were talking about using a feeling as a BASIS FOR LOGICAL EVALUATION, i already said that this isnt what im talking about and this isnt feeling, but(most likely failed) attempt in logic..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #32
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Sadness, joy or fear may be an abstract concept but there is a physical side to them which can be messured by brain scans, hormone levels, rise in blood pressure, etc. In that sense they are as real as gravity (the name you give the pattern you have observed by watching apples fall)

    EDIT: I still think you haven't understood what INTP and I have been saying and are putting words in his mouth or deliberatly misunderstanding him.
    I certainly wouldn't disagree that a man's physical being can be subjected to tests and observation. Everything you mention is an aspect of a man's physical being.

    At any rate, I'm simply responding to your arguments as you've presented them. I make it a point not to respond to what someone's motives may or may not have been.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #33
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I certainly wouldn't disagree that a man's physical being can be subjected to tests and observation. Everything you mention is an aspect of a man's physical being.

    At any rate, I'm simply responding to your arguments as you've presented them. I make it a point not to respond to what someone's motives may or may not have been.
    Are you arguing for a sport? He clarified what he meant even though it was obvious from a start to me (and most likely to other people as well) what he meant. Neither I nor he ever said or implied that something becomes true (in the sense of physical reality) just because you feel it does.

    He said
    Feelings are just as true as logic
    ... and that is not the same thing (as I tried to explain before) though admittedly phrased in an ambiguous manner. If you use common sense and background knowledge about the forum members involved as well as background knowledge about common language use and general human behavior in typical conversations instead of nitpicking Ti style (and all three of us are INTPs, for crying out loud!) in a context-blind manner, this becomes obvious. Common sense is icky, I know, it is messy, but worth using once in a while.

    Both he and I merely stated that while thinking something does not make it real, thoughts and feelings do exist. If I am depressed, that depression is as real as the fact that Paris is the capital of France or that today is january the 29th (in my time zone, using the gregorian calender, etc).
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  4. #34
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Logic is as good as the validity + quality of the assumptions made and the inevitability of the conclusion(s) reached.
    /end of thread



    Credits to @thealchemist for the smiley idea.
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    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  5. #35
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Both he and I merely stated that while thinking something does not make it real, thoughts and feelings do exist. If I am depressed, that depression is as real as the fact that Paris is the capital of France or that today is january the 29th (in my time zone, using the gregorian calender, etc).
    Thank you for clarifying your argument. This is not what INTP had argued heretofore. Saying that a thing exists and that a thing is synonymous with "truth" are two very separate arguments. Please don't use an ambiguous concept like "common sense" to justify a lack of clarity on one's own part.

    You argue that emotions "exist". Very well. As emotions have no physical existence, you are using a very idiosyncratic definition of the term which, I would argue, is so vague as to be useless in reasonable consideration and discussion.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #36
    sswwwaagggg gmanyo's Avatar
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    I have always thought logic was the system on which humans make decisions and figure out the universe that is assumed to be true without proof. Basically, it's the postulate from which all human actions and thoughts are derived.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm starting to see you and your avatar as a cloud of odor that eminates from trashy threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmanyo View Post
    I have always thought logic was the system on which humans make decisions and figure out the universe that is assumed to be true without proof. Basically, it's the postulate from which all human actions and thoughts are derived.
    And its developed by those little people who sit on your shoulder and argue with each other on what you should do. Some people have a concious...those are the ones who killed off the evil side and have nothing other then one sided reasoning.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Thank you for clarifying your argument. This is not what INTP had argued heretofore. Saying that a thing exists and that a thing is synonymous with "truth" are two very separate arguments. Please don't use an ambiguous concept like "common sense" to justify a lack of clarity on one's own part.

    You argue that emotions "exist". Very well. As emotions have no physical existence, you are using a very idiosyncratic definition of the term which, I would argue, is so vague as to be useless in reasonable consideration and discussion.
    This discussion has become increasingly pointless.

    The conversation so far:
    INTP:A
    Mycroft: B is wrong
    RH: I think he meant A, not B
    INTP: I meant A, not B
    Mycroft: Well, I agree with A but B is still wrong
    RH: Nobody ever claimed B. Listen carefully
    Mycroft: Okay, but you use fuzzy language and your definitions differ from mine

    As for your complaints:

    1. The difference between claiming the existence of something and claiming that something is true. I never said existing and being true where the same thing. You misunderstood me once again. But you seemed to reject not only the ficticious claim (the one nobody ever made) that feelings equaled truth but also the possibility that emotions could have any possible validity or relevance at all. Emotions have no physical existence, they are the name we give to a cluster of biochemical processes that CAN be messured and observed, as you yourself said. If you want to play the materialist card, sure, then there are not only no emotions but no thoughts or ideas either, then there is no reason and no logic, since those are all abstract concepts, software played on your brain which is nothing but a mass of cells with some electrical currents running through it. If you do allow for the use of abstract concepts, emotions are just another collective, abtract name for a process, a reaction. If you accept that Paris not only exists (is it a conglomeration of buildings - which are just our way of joining mass into units - or does the name also include all the coonotations that go with it, its inhabitants, its history, its culture, the seat of French government, etc?) but is the capital of France (meaning that Paris has a certain abtract function in some other abstract concept called a nation state) I see no reason why you shouldn't accept it as equally true when I say "Joe is angry" instead of saying "Joe's adrenaline level have drastically risen, his muscles have become more tense, etc.).

    2. I don't have to justify any lack of clarity on my part. I am not in court. I am participating in a leissurly conversation using the everyday meaning of common words. This is the first time in 31 years anybody complains about my supposed usage of fuzzy language. I am usually known as a pedant and somebody very well able of clearly describing complex ideas. When I appealed to your common sense I was implying that you might want to consider context when reading people's posts and use Occam's razor to figure out what they might have meant if that isn't clear to you. People do that all the time. It is ambiguous, it is fuzzy, but it is how life works and an important skill if you don't want to die alone in a cave with all the rest of the tribe thinking you are a socially handicapped robot who takes everything literally, misreads people on purpose to challenge them just for fun and can't read between the lines. Just saying

    3. You are arguing that something that doesn't physically exist, even if it can indirectly be observed on a physical level, does not "exist" in the usual sense of that word. That I use the word in an idiosyncratic manner. I strongly disagree with that...see point #1.

    4. I also strongly disagree with your assumption that this usage of the term existence is so vague it is useless. It is indeed the common usage of the term. "The are/exist three houses on the hill" -> houses don't exist, they are just clusters of building material "Between those two brothers there is/exists no love" -> sort of self-explanatory, since you already mentioned the physical nonexistence of love "There exist six time zones between city A and city B" -> once again an abstractum.


    Unless you are indeed a strong materialist who refuses to even temporarily accept the "existence" of anything non-material, of all forms of abstracta, we should actually be in agreement here. This is a case of miscommunication on both sides. As for the difference between existence and truth, well nobody claimed that it was the same thing, I just contradicted what seemed like a complete dismissal of emotions on your side. It was a reaction to your post, nothing more.

    Tell me how you define truth and we can continue from there.
    A statement can be true. Joe is sad is a statement. It can be true or false and there is a way of observing and finding out if it is true or false. In that sense emotions can be "true", which is what INTP was saying all along.
    An object (abstract or concrete) can't be true. This piece of cheese is neither true nor false. Only my claim that the object in my hand is a piece of cheese can be true or false (assuming that we can agree on a definition of what cheese is). Democracy (to use a complex abstract example) is neither true nor false, only statements about it can be true or false. In that sense of course emotions can be neither true nor false.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  9. #39
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Red Herring, I'll respond to your very well thought-out post later, when I'm not distracted. However, I take issue with your claim that I'm responding to something that no one said.

    The OP said "truth = logic" to which INTP responded, "Feelings are just as true as logic", i.e. "truth = feelings". This was the assertion made and the one to which I responded, and I still believe that your re-framing of his statement was conjecture.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #40
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The OP said "truth = logic" to which INTP responded, "Feelings are just as true as logic", i.e. "truth = feelings". This was the assertion made and the one to which I responded, and I still believe that your re-framing of his statement was conjecture.
    I said feelings are true, not that truth = feelings. According to your logic, if i say that feelings are true and agree that logic is also the truth, feelings = logic should also apply. this is the same than with karen = human, but human isnt equal to karen.. you cant just take parts of the big picture and rearrange them in random order.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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