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Thread: truth = logic

  1. #21
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    now I should probably be confused since Keats said that beauty= truth and vice versa

    does this mean that beauty=logic=truth?

    I suppose this means that beauty pageant winners and nobel laureates should be about the same thing

    also consider that humanity is really weird and does illogical things all of the time... when asked a question about something and responding truthfully they may illustrate this illogicality... which would mean that truth=illogic

    playing with intangibles is DANGEROUS
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Hmm, my post doesn't to anyone except me, or am I missing something?

    Ok, so, let's see, what doesn't make sense?

    When I said truth = logic I didn't mean it LITERALLY
    It's like saying the potter = pottery (assuming that logic would actually be the tool of truth)

    But aren't you making the potter more important, when you say, that him = the job ? Does it sound like he performs his job flawlessly, and that's why he got an "="

    Thus, doesn't the = , make logic look more important, even though it doesn't make much sense at all, unless you look at it from a flexible and ambiguous point of view.

    The sunflower is a symbol of math in nature, the seeds are distributed in a mathematical pattern, so this is why I posted it.

    Doesn't matter anyway.
    Thats like. 2/4=1/2. Therefore 2=1. Making the 4 and 2 unimportant.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #23
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Its true that you feel that im mistaken
    Perhaps, but this is tangential to your claim that feelings are a means of arriving at truth. If this were the case, the proposition "I feel strongly [some claim] is truthful, therefore [some claim] is truthful" would be valid, which it is not.

    ...I'm experiencing deja vu here.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Perhaps, but this is tangential to your claim that feelings are a means of arriving at truth. If this were the case, the proposition "I feel strongly [some claim] is truthful, therefore [some claim] is truthful" would be valid, which it is not.

    ...I'm experiencing deja vu here.
    That is not how I read what INTP said.
    I think he meant that, no matter if your feeling about something is based on fact/factually correct, the feeling does exist nevertheless. This is relevant in interhuman relationships where it is often more practical to look at how people perceive things to be and how they react to that than at what is actually (factually) true. This is uncomfortable to strong Ti users but a useful life lesson to learn.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That is not how I read what INTP said.
    I think he meant that, no matter if your feeling about something is based on fact/factually correct, the feeling does exist nevertheless. This is relevant in interhuman relationships where it is often more practical to look at how people perceive things to be and how they react to that than at what is actually (factually) true. This is uncomfortable to strong Ti users but a useful life lesson to learn.
    I can only respond to the argument as it's presented. His claim was that "feelings are true". This is untenable. Perhaps he'd intended to make another claim and will reword things accordingly, but I can't respond to a hypothetical. That would be conjecture.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I can only respond to the argument as it's presented. His claim was that "feelings are true". This is untenable. Perhaps he'd intended to make another claim and will reword things accordingly, but I can't respond to a hypothetical. That would be conjecture.
    How does that work out for you in real life?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Perhaps, but this is tangential to your claim that feelings are a means of arriving at truth. If this were the case, the proposition "I feel strongly [some claim] is truthful, therefore [some claim] is truthful" would be valid, which it is not.

    ...I'm experiencing deja vu here.
    Feeling sadness is truth about you being sad.

    Saying that i feel that you have a brown hair, therefore you must have a brown hair, is using feeling as a basis for logical evaluation, this is mixing feelings with logic, not about only the feeling.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Feeling sadness is truth about you being sad.

    Saying that i feel that you have a brown hair, therefore you must have a brown hair, is using feeling as a basis for logical evaluation, this is mixing feelings with logic, not about only the feeling.
    That's what I thought what you meant.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  9. #29
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Feeling sadness is truth about you being sad.

    Saying that i feel that you have a brown hair, therefore you must have a brown hair, is using feeling as a basis for logical evaluation, this is mixing feelings with logic, not about only the feeling.
    If we're going to discuss what truth is and is not, we must first agree upon a definition for the term so that we're discussing the same thing. I define truth as "fidelity to reality".

    For example, if I state that a rock, when released from the hand, will fall to the earth, my statement is "true" in that it displays fidelity to reality. (I trust your imaginative abilities enough to believe you can come up with a converse "untrue" statement.)

    As we define truth as "fidelity to reality", it follows that truthful or untruthful statements (i.e. statements which display or lack fidelity to reality) can only be made of existents, of which reality is constituted. Therefore, as emotions lack physical existence, no statements truthful or otherwise can be made of them. This is precisely what makes them subjective.

    Even in your own example, the strength of your belief (an emotional state) of the color of my hair is irrelevant; my hair is the color that it is and the truth of the matter could only be settled by observation.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #30
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    Sadness, joy or fear may be an abstract concept but there is a physical side to them which can be messured by brain scans, hormone levels, rise in blood pressure, etc. In that sense they are as real as gravity (the name you give the pattern you have observed by watching apples fall)

    EDIT: I still think you haven't understood what INTP and I have been saying and are putting words in his mouth or deliberatly misinterpreting him.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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