[INTJ] INTJs are inherently very subjective

[sriv]

Is that why INTJs are such good BS detectors?

 

[Veneti]

Is that why INTJs are such good BS detectors?

Because we look for consistency and bounce whatever is said off our own internal framework.

We filter everything, it is not right until we agree with it... hence, we detect BS pretty quickly. Lets face it, we also give people BS ratings which speeds up the process.

Also, we're pretty good at thowing oblique comments and testing the deflective ability of the person... find the weak chink and beat on that.. if they can defend that then they know something. Rare though.

 

[Gabe]

Because we look for consistency and bounce whatever is said off our own internal framework.

We filter everything, it is not right until we agree with it... hence, we detect BS pretty quickly. Lets face it, we also give people BS ratings which speeds up the process.

Also, we're pretty good at thowing oblique comments and testing the deflective ability of the person... find the weak chink and beat on that.. if they can defend that then they know something. Rare though.

internal 'framework'?? That sounds more like a word-for-word description of Ti. The rest sounds like some super person that some NTs might try to convince themselves that they are. It makes a very colorful zero-dimensional personality portrait though!

 

[Haphazard]

No, it's more that Ni sniffs out something that doesn't seem right and Te proceeds to destroy.

Ni and Si are similar in that they both compare and filter experience, as opposed to Ne and Se. They both compare what is perceived to how things 'should be'. However, Ni, instead of comparing to a store of past experiences, Ni tries to compare to whatever it decides is an ideal. Ni is trying to access the universal plane when figuring things out, and when it's too far off, it fails.

Ni decides that, according to internalized universals, something isn't right, and then Te systematically tears apart whatever it is to get to the root of what exactly isn't right. Once Ni finds what it was looking for, it proceeds to gloat. If 'what wasn't right' turns out to be entirely innocent, both Ni and Te run off, bright red in the face with their tails between their legs.

 

[Gabe]

No, it's more that Ni sniffs out something that doesn't seem right and Te proceeds to destroy.

Ni and Si are similar in that they both compare and filter experience, as opposed to Ne and Se. They both compare what is perceived to how things 'should be'. However, Ni, instead of comparing to a store of past experiences, Ni tries to compare to whatever it decides is an ideal. Ni is trying to access the universal plane when figuring things out, and when it's too far off, it fails.

Ni decides that, according to internalized universals, something isn't right, and then Te systematically tears apart whatever it is to get to the root of what exactly isn't right. Once Ni finds what it was looking for, it proceeds to gloat. If 'what wasn't right' turns out to be entirely innocent, both Ni and Te run off, bright red in the face with their tails between their legs.

hmm. It occurs to me that dominant processes don't usually gloat unless it's recovering from insecurity.

However, the process/archetype that often does gloat is the tertiary/child. In fact, the whole theme of the tertiary is that it continually oscillates between loosing and regaining confidence. When the tertiary is right, it is on top of the world, enthusiastic, and gloating, when it ends up being wrong it whimpers and collapses (a great child arcetypal figure would be the lion in The Wizard of Oz, who at first is all "I'll kick your ass with my eyes closed" and then is all "what did you *sob* do that *sniff* for" after Dorothy slaps him)

 

[Haphazard]

hmm. It occurs to me that dominant processes don't usually gloat unless it's recovering from insecurity.

However, the process/archetype that often does gloat is the tertiary/child. In fact, the whole theme of the tertiary is that it continually oscillates between loosing and regaining confidence. When the tertiary is right, it is on top of the world, enthusiastic, and gloating, when it ends up being wrong it whimpers and collapses (a great child arcetypal figure would be the lion in The Wizard of Oz, who at first is all "I'll kick your ass with my eyes closed" and then is all "what did you *sob* do that *sniff* for" after Dorothy slaps him)

Lol. Well, it's just an expression. The point is that they were right... I guess for an INTJ it would be more of a smug satisfaction, anyway, rather than outright gloating.

 

[Cypocalypse]

Thoughts from an INTP:

I don't get the title of the thread. I find INTJ's to be protocol oriented and logic based. They're more coherent than subjective, actually. You get their drift, and remains as such.

Their strong Te implies empiricism, and their J fuction implies that they're probably more prejudicial than the P's.

Problem with this, not every process of learning or getting to the "truth" involves empiricism, and I guess this is where the biases of Te and J comes in. There's no universal methodology in learning everything.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I generally agree with Haphazard and Veneti. Philosophically, I think holding a more (knowingly) subjective view of the world holds some merit, due to the brain's ability to generate reality. But that's another topic, since we're mostly discussing reason/argument, and subjective viewpoints are a lot less valuable in rational discourse, unless discussing ethics or something.

I agree that it has to do with dominant Ni. They do say it's an irrational function, since it's a perceiving function. It's also introverted, which decreases the need for outside input, and thus makes it more subjective. As Athenian said, I believe the Ni-Fi axis also plays some role. But I think most just has to do with Ni getting ahead of the other functions. Most of my lapses in judgment tend to stem from not allowing my other functions to catch up and do a logic or reality-check on my Ni intuitions. So sometimes I just need to slow down and think things through a bit more calmly.

Sometimes inspiration tends to come with a bit of a high, with the feeling of realization and this odd sensation of certainty you can't really put easily to words all the time, it often feels like my consciousness is just arranging itself in certain ways in order to receive transmissions from somewhere out there. But that's crazy. I just mean, despite the subjective nature of Ni, inspiration often tends to feel oddly trans personal or even originating from someplace outside myself. I know it isn't, but that feeling can sort of create an unsound sort of "certainty" which can kind lead to failure if blindly followed.

 

[Veneti]

internal 'framework'?? That sounds more like a word-for-word description of Ti. The rest sounds like some super person that some NTs might try to convince themselves that they are. It makes a very colorful zero-dimensional personality portrait though!

Errr.. I am that person.

So I'd have to disagree with that "one dimensional personality" concept.

 

[Veneti]

I actually believe I am very F. But in order to ensure that the correct decision is made T always rules the day. As I've said before the I coupled with the T/F is a dynamo that generates energy.

 

[Uytuun]

double post, please ignore

 

[Uytuun]

I find it strange that you describe Ni as being blind...I think of it as being a clairvoyant function...very much so. I also don't think it has misled me often. I trust it a lot, though admittedly it's hard to determine where Ni stops and Te begins. I'm not so sure about Ni and comparing stuff to an ideal view either...my Ni says it's not right. It's extremely hard to explain the function, I've found.

Hello, sriv.

 

[Haphazard]

I find it strange that you describe Ni as being blind...I think of it as being a clairvoyant function...very much so. I also don't think it has misled me often. I trust it a lot, though admittedly it's hard to determine where Ni stops and Te begins. I'm not so sure about Ni and comparing stuff to an ideal view either...my Ni says it's not right. It's extremely hard to explain the function, I've found.

Hello, sriv.

My Ni says it's right... Lol.

Ni is a blind seer. Even though it may be clairvoyant, it's still blind, and on top of that, it's relatively helpless. A blind seer is useless unless there's anyone to listen (Te).

In subjective matters, I've found that Ni often leads me 'astray' as in that it gives me things that don't go along with the rest of the group, and keeps screaming about it and has led me through a lot of pain and misery of being bent back into the form of the rest of the group. It may not have been 'wrong,' per se, but it can cause a lot of grief.

 

[Nocapszy]

introversion...

 

[umop_3pisdn]

My Ni says it's right... Lol.

Ni is a blind seer. Even though it may be clairvoyant, it's still blind, and on top of that, it's relatively helpless. A blind seer is useless unless there's anyone to listen (Te).

In subjective matters, I've found that Ni often leads me 'astray' as in that it gives me things that don't go along with the rest of the group, and keeps screaming about it and has led me through a lot of pain and misery of being bent back into the form of the rest of the group. It may not have been 'wrong,' per se, but it can cause a lot of grief.

Agreed. Not only does Ni in itself lack adequate means of expression, it also doesn't make sense to place too much trust in it. The way Ni works is often things like recognizing expected patterns so as to match our intentions or preconceptions. It can be an awesome time saver, because we're able to hold an independent intent and hone in on the relevant areas really quickly... but it also just strikes me as a bit dubious/untrustworthy, and in need of a very serious and in-depth analysis so as to properly frame it, or to take it with a grain of salt when necessary. Often times Ni can sort of exaggerate or underplay things according to intent, and often times some adjustment may be necessary after the initial realization.

Ni also isn't exceptionally useful in all fields of life. It tends to deal with essences and idealistic circumstances. Good for generalizing or theoretical observations. Not so good at a closer or more detailed level.

And Ni is just too difficult to substantiate with reasoning, sometimes. It's like, I know there is some profound relationship between some subjective symbols I have inside me, but they can seem almost so mysterious or profound, that I'm lucky to even be able to verbally understand it. Like it aspires to some weird essence of consciousness and experience that borders on the edge of the human mind, and is so far out there, and lacking in adequate vocabulary. It really trips me out.

I really identify with the "astray", thing, too. It sounds ridiculous when I say it... but I'll so often become preoccupied with weird or entirely irrelevant internal things. I so throughly manage to absorb myself in it, and I end up completely neglecting anything that isn't of my own inner-world. I allow it to alienate me from other people so often. I'd say it's the main means by which I self-alienate.

It's often things like dreams, hypnogogic images, visualizations, or images and symbols in general. Oftentimes it has a very mystical vibe... like I see some image or scene in my dream, and it literally touches me so much I'm haunted by the images long afterwards. There's just subjective meaning pouring from every seam, and the scenes themselves are like poetry... and it all seems deeply philosophical and symbolic, and I'll relate to it the nature of existentialism or human experience and suffering and joy and other weird transcendent things, like where the spirit goes after the body dies, what death may be like, and how life itself is all one giant dream, and each one of us is alone in our own universe.

But yeah, I find I get involved in numinous and personal things of this nature, to such an extent... that it's literally what I want to do with me life. Like spiritual/internal journeying type stuff. The world within us is so ridiculously deep. If I was going to plumb any depths, it would be those closest to me. Coincidentally, it also tends to be that in which I find the most fascination

So, yeah, INTJ's are definitely very subjective. At least this one is. I base like everything about me off of it, sometimes I trust it way too much. Or I look to it to feed some deep, individual, and philosophical yearning and I get really weird and isolated/introverted. I'll stop socializing, spend most of my time alone, forget about friendships, and preoccupy myself with gazing into the void within myself. Most of my faults tend to stem from this. Most of my joys and deepest motivations also seem to stem from this. I've incorporated it quite deeply into my view of the world. If anything, I'm most prone to trying to "lose myself" via an aspiring of the spirit. Say, in the nature and meaning of beauty and experience.

 

[Haphazard]

I write. Writing is usually a futile attempt of mine to put thoughts into a form that makes sense. It usually doesn't work.

I have to figure out exactly what I say long before I actually say it because the form in which ideas come cannot be understood. Everything needs a good refining before it goes onto paper (or the web, for that matter). I end up using a lot of cliches and metaphors in speech to get my point across, as devices to make ideas understood. People have complained to me about this... Explanations immediately become anthropomorphized to some extent.

If this isn't some evidence of Ni, I don't know what is.

 

[Uytuun]

Mwell, I don't seem to place as much of a beware-sign next to my Ni as you guys seem to do. It generates some really amazing insights for me...I'm sometimes surprised at the stuff I come up with...then again, it is extremely useful for me since I mostly analyse literature these days...I guess it's different in everyday life, but even there it helps me out substantially. I agree on the mystical part...I've always thought it was kind of strange that INTJs were so heavily associated with exact (applied) sciences.

And what about grasping difficult stuff? I find that it helps me with that as well...even when I can't explain it, I often just intuitively "know" what they mean. Like the connections are there and just have to be activated by Te or something.

Also...don't you find that you can have some kind of child-like vibe going on sometimes? There's a weird kind of aura of pureness and child-like enthusiasm about INTJs I think, especially when they are working on something and they get insight after insight and it all seems to come together.

 

[Veneti]

Mwell, I don't seem to place as much of a beware-sign next to my Ni as you guys seem to do. It generates some really amazing insights for me...I'm sometimes surprised at the stuff I come up with...then again, it is extremely useful for me since I mostly analyse literature these days...I guess it's different in everyday life, but even there it helps me out substantially. I agree on the mystical part...I've always thought it was kind of strange that INTJs were so heavily associated with exact (applied) sciences.

And what about grasping difficult stuff? I find that it helps me with that as well...even when I can't explain it, I often just intuitively "know" what they mean. Like the connections are there and just have to be activated by Te or something.

Also...don't you find that you can have some kind of child-like vibe going on sometimes? There's a weird kind of aura of pureness and child-like enthusiasm about INTJs I think, especially when they are working on something and they get insight after insight and it all seems to come together.

INTJs are endorphin junkies and amazing insights into new things create a buzz.

INTJs have to be subjective, if you are too prescriptive you cannot manage large amounts of data, as monitoring each interconnection is exponentially more difficult. INTJs effectively compact data into analogies and symbols as a way of being like cogs in a mechanised machine that can move at a faster rate.

Its the curiosity that makes us not get chronically bogged down in the minor details.

I think theres also brain connection involved as well. Not all brains are the same, just as all hair coloring is not the same. Prehaps its just the first signs of a rift...as we diverge into different species..

 

[Haphazard]

Mwell, I don't seem to place as much of a beware-sign next to my Ni as you guys seem to do. It generates some really amazing insights for me...I'm sometimes surprised at the stuff I come up with...then again, it is extremely useful for me since I mostly analyse literature these days...I guess it's different in everyday life, but even there it helps me out substantially. I agree on the mystical part...I've always thought it was kind of strange that INTJs were so heavily associated with exact (applied) sciences.

And what about grasping difficult stuff? I find that it helps me with that as well...even when I can't explain it, I often just intuitively "know" what they mean. Like the connections are there and just have to be activated by Te or something.

Also...don't you find that you can have some kind of child-like vibe going on sometimes? There's a weird kind of aura of pureness and child-like enthusiasm about INTJs I think, especially when they are working on something and they get insight after insight and it all seems to come together.

I'm very childlike. ^_^

I personally trust Ni but a lot of people don't, so I have to backtrack and back everything up. It's a pain in the ass.

About INTJs in applied sciences -- it makes more sense to me for them to be in law. Law gives very exact parameters (that Te likes) and gives Ni enough room for creative interpretation of circumstances. Fi would strive to keep the INTJ happy with his moral purity while still allowing him to do his work. INTJs also seem like they'd have enough patience with the legal system, unlike our kindred INFJs.

 

[Veneti]

About INTJs in applied sciences -- it makes more sense to me for them to be in law. Law gives very exact parameters (that Te likes) and gives Ni enough room for creative interpretation of circumstances. Fi would strive to keep the INTJ happy with his moral purity while still allowing him to do his work. INTJs also seem like they'd have enough patience with the legal system, unlike our kindred INFJs.

Only problem with law is that universities put too much emphasis on written language. Hence, the more technical INTJ's go for more mathematical areas...computer science, sciences, finance and so forth.

I absolutely excelled in the Harvard case studies for business.... I think they are designed for INTJs and we can see the hidden insights. Its like a game. Think big and think small.... and comprehend the unstructured with partial information to create the coherent best strategy/solution...