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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default INTP-ENFP Relationships: a few observations

    I made this post over at INTJf awhile back as a couple of enfps were having issues with their INTJ and INTP marriages. The INTJ-ENFP was going well but the INTP-ENFP was having a lot of issues. The INTP enfp said the post would save her marriage, so I thought I'd post here as well since it seemed helpful in case someone searches on the topic. It's pretty random and sort of contrasts the two relationships. A good friend recently ended her 10 year relationship with her INTP husband and it left me saddened as they still love each other and have kidlets-they just cant get past some of the the stuff below and kept stumbling. Many of the issues were similar to what I faced with my ISTP ex as well. It weighs upon my heart heavily that innate, personality based behaviors can detsroy relationships so easily-some of this stuff is so easy to work around-if you know it is there in the first place:

    Both the ENFP-INTJ or ENFP-INTP relationship could work, but both take some work. I suspect the ENFP-INTJ relationship will hit bumps early on and either deal with them or break up. The ENFP-INTP relationship can just go stumbling on through the night without ever really addressing the underlying differences until something finally explodes and they detest one another.

    A friend once noted that INTP men will seek out "moms' to sort of take care of the day to day details. The INTPs also seem okay with others tweaking on their emotions to change behavior. Both of these are things you would expect out of an ENFJ (I know 6 ENFJ-INTP couples ). The ENFP can sorta mimic ENFJ behaviors at times, so ENFP-INTP relationships can end up in long term marriage.

    The INTP sees sweetness and nurturing behavior and mistakes Fi for Fe.

    Eventually the diffs that seem to arise and cause the worst issues:

    1. As the IXTP matures, his inf Fe will emerge and all things Fe become more valued. Old INTPs are like really sarcastic, young ISFJs and can be very judgmental. An odd desire for domestic harmony and tradition emerge, things ENFPs do not provide. The IXTP also can find the extroverted emotions of the ENFP to be inappropriate or "crazy", as they are not processed in the way a display of Fe would be, leaving the ENFP judged via the INTPs shadow function. Quenk calls this out very clearly in “Was that really me?” This cycles badly as the ENFP, feeling rejected upon display of their emotions, will withdraw emotionally from the relationship, until they become very silent and stony.

    I feel for the IXTPs here, as they can be extremely sweet, wonderful people, it is just a miscommunication issue.

    2. The INTPs seem to find ENFPs stupid mostly. The problem is that ENFPs take giant Ne leaps on a skeletal Te structure. Ti, even when backed with Ne, CANNOT follow those leaps-thus a very visceral "bullshit" flag gets called. The INTPs fall back on their tert function-Si-and just cry "stupid". Perhaps at first the INTPs try and be open minded, but after seeing this same leap occur several times, they seem to assume they are dealing with an idiot. Now, no doubt, enfps can be full of bullshit, but we also can be pretty good at flying by the seat of our Te pants in situations where you just need to take a leap rather than try and delineate every single detailed step. We excel at logic in fuzzy areas like market analysis. We thrive on sharing of ideas-but have to learn to respect ISTPs idea space.

    IXTPs also HATE to be told what to do-and ENFPs begin to use Te to try and care for others like a TJ would-thus can seem pretty bossy as we age, thus we can really grate on them by not only telling them what to do, but trying to tell them what to think about an idea, a huge no-no. (Oddly, it is totally okay to mess with their emotions....and tell them what they feel is wrong. *shivers*)

    3. The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive? For instance the previous sentence I just typed "The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive" states for ALL Ti users, in EVERY instance of Te usage, assumes that Te is ALWAYS a generalization, and assumes they ALWAYS ALL find it offensive. Another ENFP will read this and recognize the whole thing is a generalization at every step, useful but flexible,-but most Ti users see it and then have to stop and check it against their internal logical system for every single generalization stated...Eventually they just seem to hit too many bumps and say fuck it. The harder you push the idea, the harder they push back.

    The INTJs however, live in Te generalities themselves, so the generality isnt going to typically offend them. Additionally, I have heard many INTJs say "If an idea has even the slightest chance of being true, I'll listen to it". The INTJs love ENFPs as we spew ideas endlessly. We are Ni context generation machines. Now the funny part is that you will have a long convo with the INTJ, think you convinced him of your point, then find yourself argueing the same convo later-"dude, I thought we agreed on this???" They agreed to listen and consider your context, but that doesnt mean they agreed in any way with the idea.. LOL.

    4. ENFPs will communicate in Fi, then Te. Thus they share about their own experiences, in a desire to prompt the other person to share about their experiences-mirroring. Then they problem solve by giving suggestions-Te. Thus it sounds alternately selfish, then bossy from the perspective of inferior Fe given it is totally backwards from Ti/Fe communication patterns. When stressed the enfp will revert to Te to gain control of the situation-which can seem really controlling to the INTP.

    Instaed-the enfp needs to share and use emotion in a soothing way to request change from the IXTP. It feels really *ewwww* at first, feels terribly manipulative and even abusive, but is like speaking the correct language.

    The enfp will also want to talk problems to death in terms of what each DID, not what each FELT. This is amazingly easy with an INTJ, but with an IXTP ends up snagged up as you have to convert actions back into emotional requests. It is very...confusing.

    5. The IXTPs will tend to place the burden of structuring the outside world onto the enfp-bills, appontiments and so on. The enfp sucks at this, gets stressed, becomes more Te-ish, which sets up a cycle in which the IXTP feels more and more bossed around and controlled-while the enfp feels more and more burdened unfairly. This seems to result in the end of the relationship as it is a nasty cycle.


    One last bit-Based upon what my ENTP friend has told me, Ti users have some sense of value/importance/merit/respect from others attached to the actual idea, just as we attach our sense of self to our internal Fi values. If you attack the INTPs ideas harshly and bluntly, in a rough tert Te manner, you may be devaluing him as a person . (An INTJ may seem attached to the actual idea, but rather fears being incompetent...thus will defend the extroverted idea vigorously and defensively..)

  2. #2
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Interesting. I'm not an ENFP, but can vouch for the accuracy of some of the INTP behaviors you mention. Your insights are another piece of the puzzle in understanding my own INTP better.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Apparently im some really weird ass INTP since most of this really doesent fit me at all, or maybe its because i was raised by ENFP single parent.

    First of all, i dont need or want someone to take care of my day to day details, nor am i looking for someone to take care of me. What comes to emotional manipulation, this is something that pisses me more than anything.. and for others

    1. Domestic harmony is true and if by tradition you mean a job i like, my own house, wife and stuff like that, well yes to this too. My mom rants quite alot about stuff to me and i dont find her emotional reaction to stuff she rants about(thats the stuff she mostly rants about) crazy or inappropriate in any way, because she explains the situations pretty well. Its not the emotional reactions that are crazy or inappropriate, but she gets really paranoid and delusional about stuff under great emotional stress, but this stuff is something that is really off the wall and only happened like 3 times and only once big time. Its just some small stuff i dont get, like her getting annoyed by someone driving like, well the same wy she does.. but i point it out and laugh about it and tell that she does the same things, maybe i have some magic way of telling this, but she doesent seem judged by it(or maybe i have done this enough times and knows i dont mean to offend her, but just find it funny when she does that). Or if its about something she doesent also do that annoys her and i dont get(its some small stuff, because she explains bigger stuff), i just try to make her see the point of view of the person who makes the thing annoying her. This isnt about judging her, but trying to make her see that she is being judgmental(if it is, and usually it is, because her Te snap judgments are the source of this).

    2. I dont find ENFPs dumb, i think they are very bright in many ways, maybe not always in the same stuff that i shine, but im not that good at stuff they are good at. Now this wasnt always the case, when i was younger i seriously thought my mom is a retard, since i could outsmart her at many things at the age of 10, but as i grew older, i realized that she is just good at other stuff than i am. And i can perfectly follow her "Ne leaps on Te frame".

    I dont mind being told what to do, that is unless i know how to do it, giving me suggestions work better. I really dislike it if im asking what to do and cant get a proper answer.
    About this telling us what to think of idea(never seen someone doing this) after not agreeing. Well i just simply ask "why?", if you cant answer that question, i got no reason to think that way about some idea. If i agree, why on earth would you tell me that i should think what i think and why should i care you saying that? Now if you are able to answer the why question, why didnt you explain it earlier? With this the ENFP would need some training, tell me why should i think something, not what i should think. This why i should think something of something i really enjoy and i want to see your opinion and insight on things.

    3. I dont think Te is generalizations, its what you think based on observed data. If you make some snap judgments about stuff based on very limited amount of observed data, ill point that out and explain why it might not be the way you see it. Obviously its your Te that needs to be tamed in this situation. Lucky ENFP Te judgment isnt the same as INTJ Te and actually can be overcome by reason(and maybe making you feel like you are being overly judgmental, in other words poke at your Fi).
    And i do agree to listen, which is the opposite from what my INTJ friend is like.. But hes bit weird with this, if he likes some girl, he will listen what she says, no matter how far off it is. Like he briefly was seeing this girl who was so superstitious and believed in all kinds of weird shit and didnt even know what evolution is about(seriously what the fuck), and he listened to the stuff she said, i mean he wont even listen to philosophy from great authors, because science > all and nothing else matters to him.. He needs some authority figure of pussy or he wont listen what you say to him. Also no chances of anyone being able to tell him what to do or what to think of something.. The real difference is that if he will listen what someone says and disagrees at some point(and some way doesent stop listening), he will listen to the end and wont say if he disagrees or sees something differently, i on the other hand stop you and ask for clarification on something if i need it.

    4. First part: I really see no problem with this, actually its the preferred way for me. I dont get whats selfish or bossy about that.

    Second part: I dont really get what you mean with this?(for that one thing about part 3, i would stop you here and ask for clarification and i dont see how INTJ just listening and not understanding can be a positive thing as it leads to misunderstandings on some small stuff that never come up and slowly distort your view about each others).

    Third part: YES tell me what everyone did, not what everyone felt if you want me to understand what happened and what caused you to feel bad. Tell me everything that you want to share about it, because you are telling me what you think is important and what you think is important is what is important on understanding you, and understanding you is my aim with listening to you. I dont understand what rest of this part means, but is it important, since it seems like something i dont want?

    5. This stucturing the outside world sound more Tj thing, i really dont want this and dont care about making any appointments, call me when you want to see me and ill do the same. Now ofc if it would be wednesday for example, you would call me and want to see me, but id need to study hard for some exam on monday, i might say that not today or tomorrow, but friday is fine. Might even add that we can spend night together, but gotta do some studying on saturday too. But its more about adjusting to situation, not a lifestyle of working on a schedule and building my social life on making appointments.

    Yea dont attack my ideas by saying they suck, tell me why they dont work(if you think they wont) or be prepared on answering when i ask why or you just piss me off.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #4
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Let's synthesize with Ni and make it succinct with Te. The INTJ/ENFP dynamic is one of "Who's your daddy" and manic pixie dream girl.

    Even as a Te-dom, my bullshit meter goes off the chart with many ENFPs.

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    I’m often really confused and curious when it comes to dealing with ENFPs. I can’t really tell whether an ENFP does or does not like what I tell them – they often seem slow to the uptake – and never give me a good enough response, so I can truly gauge their feelings.

    Sometimes, when I’m talking to an ENFP, they randomly show me a lot of appreciation, later in the day, but other times, when I think I’m getting along with one, they don't show me any mutual understanding. I’ve noticed that what I don’t normally think about offends them, like if I did not remember them in a plan, but they can surprisingly display a great intuitive capacity for understanding what I mean and how I mean it.

    They are often creative and clever with jokes and analogies, which people generally enjoy, while others seem to take literally. I admire the level of silliness they can display, which brings me out of my shell immediately. ENFPs that specialize in certain fields, like science or politics, can be extremely inspiring and entertaining. They have a gift for communication. My biggest problem with ENFPs is the Fe-shadow and Fi-auxiliary miscommunications. But we can get along like two fat kids at band camp through our Ne.

  6. #6
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    TLDR at the bottom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    A friend once noted that INTP men will seek out "moms' to sort of take care of the day to day details. The INTPs also seem okay with others tweaking on their emotions to change behavior. Both of these are things you would expect out of an ENFJ (I know 6 ENFJ-INTP couples ). The ENFP can sorta mimic ENFJ behaviors at times, so ENFP-INTP relationships can end up in long term marriage.
    IXTPs also HATE to be told what to do-and ENFPs begin to use Te to try and care for others like a TJ would-thus can seem pretty bossy as we age, thus we can really grate on them by not only telling them what to do, but trying to tell them what to think about an idea, a huge no-no. (Oddly, it is totally okay to mess with their emotions....and tell them what they feel is wrong. *shivers*)
    wat
    Make up your mind here. They want to be mothered around and directed or they hate being told what to do?

    The INTP sees sweetness and nurturing behavior and mistakes Fi for Fe.
    I'm not following as to what implications you think this has. Sweetness and nurturing is sweetness and nurturing. Are you saying the INTP finds it fake?

    1. As the IXTP matures, his inf Fe will emerge and all things Fe become more valued. Old INTPs are like really sarcastic, young ISFJs and can be very judgmental. An odd desire for domestic harmony and tradition emerge, things ENFPs do not provide. The IXTP also can find the extroverted emotions of the ENFP to be inappropriate or "crazy", as they are not processed in the way a display of Fe would be, leaving the ENFP judged via the INTPs shadow function. Quenk calls this out very clearly in “Was that really me?” This cycles badly as the ENFP, feeling rejected upon display of their emotions, will withdraw emotionally from the relationship, until they become very silent and stony.
    I am not very old, so I haven't experienced this thus far. To be honest, I find the reverse happening. INTP teens and early 20s can be characterized by a lot of self certitude and arrogance, simply because they have grown to only place their trust on their own minds to tell them what is true and they haven't yet learned how to integrate Ne with Ti enough to be a bit more open. IMO if someone acts like an ISJ later in life, they've probably just been ISJs all along. People don't start embodying their tertiary and inferiors, they tend to just stop being consumed by them, for most part.

    2. The INTPs seem to find ENFPs stupid mostly. The problem is that ENFPs take giant Ne leaps on a skeletal Te structure. Ti, even when backed with Ne, CANNOT follow those leaps-thus a very visceral "bullshit" flag gets called. The INTPs fall back on their tert function-Si-and just cry "stupid". Perhaps at first the INTPs try and be open minded, but after seeing this same leap occur several times, they seem to assume they are dealing with an idiot. Now, no doubt, enfps can be full of bullshit, but we also can be pretty good at flying by the seat of our Te pants in situations where you just need to take a leap rather than try and delineate every single detailed step. We excel at logic in fuzzy areas like market analysis. We thrive on sharing of ideas-but have to learn to respect ISTPs idea space.
    INTPs can find ENFPs stupid, but IME not for the reasons you describe. It's mostly when they see them projecting all over everything and they're not aware they're doing it. What you said here doesn't make too much sense. INTPs have less issues with Te than they have with Fi. If you're saying INTPs viscerally reject anything that's poorly thought out, well no shit. Any NT is like this. It also seems like you're saying the INTP should just roll with it because obviously the ENFP's dom-tert use should be catered to, while INTP dom-tert use is always negative and rains on your parade.

    3. The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive? For instance the previous sentence I just typed "The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive" states for ALL Ti users, in EVERY instance of Te usage, assumes that Te is ALWAYS a generalization, and assumes they ALWAYS ALL find it offensive. Another ENFP will read this and recognize the whole thing is a generalization at every step, useful but flexible,-but most Ti users see it and then have to stop and check it against their internal logical system for every single generalization stated...Eventually they just seem to hit too many bumps and say fuck it. The harder you push the idea, the harder they push back.
    Yeah...no. Generalizations ARE useful. Very useful. INTPs may not particularly be happy with how they're applied by someone using them for Dom-tert psychological defense and justification. Recall I mentioned Ti doms not having much of an issue with pure Te as they do with something like Fi. INTPs are intuitive thinkers; ENFPs are not. If INTPs see sloppy intuitive thinking, they're naturally going to disregard it or not take it seriously. It'd be like if an INTP had sloppy emotional reasoning but maintained it's rock solid over yours simply because. Ridiculous, right?

    A lot of this seems like you're falling into the odd ENFP trap of glorifying your tertiary, which nobody else does aside from maybe ENTJs patting themselves on the back in their sociopathic Te-Se bulldozer mode. This ties in to an ENFP's particular brand of a lack of self-awareness, as nobody thinks this is cute and/or admirable aside from yourselves.

    The INTJs however, live in Te generalities themselves, so the generality isnt going to typically offend them. Additionally, I have heard many INTJs say "If an idea has even the slightest chance of being true, I'll listen to it". The INTJs love ENFPs as we spew ideas endlessly. We are Ni context generation machines. Now the funny part is that you will have a long convo with the INTJ, think you convinced him of your point, then find yourself argueing the same convo later-"dude, I thought we agreed on this???" They agreed to listen and consider your context, but that doesnt mean they agreed in any way with the idea.. LOL.
    Cool story bro.

    4. ENFPs will communicate in Fi, then Te. Thus they share about their own experiences, in a desire to prompt the other person to share about their experiences-mirroring. Then they problem solve by giving suggestions-Te. Thus it sounds alternately selfish, then bossy from the perspective of inferior Fe given it is totally backwards from Ti/Fe communication patterns. When stressed the enfp will revert to Te to gain control of the situation-which can seem really controlling to the INTP.
    I don't think this is true at all. I don't think anything sounds bossy to Fe, especially not to ITPs who naturally tend to hate it. INTPs don't think emotional support or emotional considerations help them at all, so any kind of feeling nonsense they will find to just be missing the point. INTPs are creative problem solvers. Help them to creatively solve a problem as abstractly and impersonally as possible. INTP problems are typically when we can't find a new, helpful way to see our way out of a situation. They tend to need Ne, not necessarily Te but that can work, but most definitely not Fi. Almost always considered unhelpful.

    The thing is, INTPs don't really consider their emotions to be part of themselves which ENFPs tend to find ghastly and omg how can you even do such a thing. INTP emotion gets swept under the rug a lot because, and this is crucial, they do not see them as important things to worry about so they're just unceremoniously dismissed for later.

    Instaed-the enfp needs to share and use emotion in a soothing way to request change from the IXTP. It feels really *ewwww* at first, feels terribly manipulative and even abusive, but is like speaking the correct language.
    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

    Stick to INTJs please.

    INTPs would rather be explicity be "briefed" on why and how they should change, so there is no ambiguity and they properly understand, and then they can laugh at you for trying to change them.

    The enfp will also want to talk problems to death in terms of what each DID, not what each FELT. This is amazingly easy with an INTJ, but with an IXTP ends up snagged up as you have to convert actions back into emotional requests. It is very...confusing.
    I agree that it is confusing, because I cannot find a single instance of where I have encountered this and your ability to evaluate what you're seeing in terms of type gets more suspect every time you post nonsense like this.

    5. The IXTPs will tend to place the burden of structuring the outside world onto the enfp-bills, appontiments and so on. The enfp sucks at this, gets stressed, becomes more Te-ish, which sets up a cycle in which the IXTP feels more and more bossed around and controlled-while the enfp feels more and more burdened unfairly. This seems to result in the end of the relationship as it is a nasty cycle.
    Better idea: date adults, not children, regardless of their type. Neither type likes doing these things, but if they're adjusted adults they will be perfectly proficient. If your SO can't pay bills or keep appointments, dump them because they're slobs.

    INTPs are highly obsessed with competence and self preservation and to be quite honest, the LAST thing I'm doing is outsourcing my personal finances and agenda to an ENFP. So again, I don't know where you're getting this from.


    One last bit-Based upon what my ENTP friend has told me, Ti users have some sense of value/importance/merit/respect from others attached to the actual idea, just as we attach our sense of self to our internal Fi values. If you attack the INTPs ideas harshly and bluntly, in a rough tert Te manner, you may be devaluing him as a person . (An INTJ may seem attached to the actual idea, but rather fears being incompetent...thus will defend the extroverted idea vigorously and defensively..)
    This is general and can apply to anybody and whether or not critique is handled properly has to do both parties, not necessarily type. Again, Te doesn't bother us in terms of thinking. Bad thinking bothers us, and why use tert Te when you can use dom Ne, which the two types share, and be far more helpful by illustrating contexts we may have missed that apply.

    TLDR

    I don't think a lot of what you said is accurate from an INTP perspective, you don't seem to understand what is happening in the dynamic, don't seem to understand the functional cognition of an INTP at all, and while I'm no pro and do NOT want to speak for you, don't think you even understand your own functions and the roles they play.

    I don't think type is a great way to predict compatibility. This is so individual it's largely meaningless to use type aside from evaluating likelihoods. It IS a good way to describe miscommunication and think about how to present arguments and information to your partner in a way that they can use it. But a fundamental disagreement will not always be solved by type as it describes why, not what. If there are some differences that are higher level in nature, like what one wants out of life, of a partner, out of family, what they want their role to be, no type wizardry is going to overcome those things. Type doesn't describe an entirety of a person, and if you try to use it like that, you're just going to be disappointed.

    Maybe some thoughts on relationship later.



  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Let's synthesize with Ni and make it succinct with Te. The INTJ/ENFP dynamic is one of "Who's your daddy" and manic pixie dream girl.
    Finally! A summary of that thread!

  8. #8
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    oh, you guys actually answered! I figured you'd just flame me with trolling and insults. Anyways, all of your thoughts and corrections are awesome and insightful, as note I called the thread "Observations", not "Conclusions". The observations were made on older INTPs/older ISTPs and are total ....ummm...sketches. Models, really rough working models with real blurry lines. Nr thrown over a Te framework. There is nothing more awesome than to have you guys give feedback on where there are flaws and correct with your own understanding. Normally, I'd never even bother posting it-but like I said, the enfp seemed to think they were very helpful for her and it feels...almost wrong, in a weird moral sense, not to share information that might be able to help others.

    I have many questions, but my attention span is limited and I kinda suck at the Ti item by item reply, but will try.

    (As an aside, I have always been very fond of intps irl)

  9. #9
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Apparently im some really weird ass INTP since most of this really doesent fit me at all, or maybe its because i was raised by ENFP single parent..
    Oh, that is really interesting-I think you have alwyas been my fav online INTP as you never call us crazy, like some of the other intps do. Did you ever find your mom's emo to upset or effect you negatively? I have met a lot of INFJs and ENTPs who say their crazy emo enfp moms really screwed them up a bit, as it seemed very unstable

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    1. Domestic harmony is true and if by tradition you mean a job i like, my own house, wife and stuff like that, well yes to this too. My mom rants quite alot about stuff to me and i dont find her emotional reaction to stuff she rants about(thats the stuff she mostly rants about) crazy or inappropriate in any way, because she explains the situations pretty well. Its not the emotional reactions that are crazy or inappropriate, but she gets really paranoid and delusional about stuff under great emotional stress, but this stuff is something that is really off the wall and only happened like 3 times and only once big time...
    oh yes, Ne paranoia, terrible stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    About this telling us what to think of idea(never seen someone doing this) after not agreeing. Well i just simply ask "why?", if you cant answer that question, i got no reason to think that way about some idea. If i agree, why on earth would you tell me that i should think what i think and why should i care you saying that? Now if you are able to answer the why question, why didnt you explain it earlier? With this the ENFP would need some training, tell me why should i think something, not what i should think. This why i should think something of something i really enjoy and i want to see your opinion and insight on things....
    For me, the "what" is typically a summation of a bunch of stuff I have seen. Since I saw it, I "know" it is true, understanding it is an individual perception. Better phrased, I have confidence in the specific instances I have observed and have made tentative connections to establish a generalization based off of them. So the "why" can be a problem, as I then have a few options 1) recount each observation, aka "story" as the INTJs make fun of, 2) try and illustrate the idea as something you have observed in your own life n=1, 3) point to an external ref source as the expert, n=many but not too enlightending often. Talking science or hard fact with an INTP is never an issue actually because it is very simple to deliniate exactly what the connections made were and point to the proof items-the why? But often it seems than an enfp's interest is geared toward the messy world of people-with no hard data available.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    3. I dont think Te is generalizations, its what you think based on observed data. If you make some snap judgments about stuff based on very limited amount of observed data, ill point that out and explain why it might not be the way you see it. Obviously its your Te that needs to be tamed in this situation. Lucky ENFP Te judgment isnt the same as INTJ Te and actually can be overcome by reason(and maybe making you feel like you are being overly judgmental, in other words poke at your Fi).....
    How many data points do you need to feel comfortable with a conclusion? Why do you feel comfy? What gives you security that you have the correct idea? The entps are often the funnest idea playground with me-they are willing to step out there and bite on an idea, even if sketchy. I am totally comfy in "sloppy think" land-as it works often enough to keep using.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    And i do agree to listen, which is the opposite from what my INTJ friend is like.. But hes bit weird with this, if he likes some girl, he will listen what she says, no matter how far off it is. Like he briefly was seeing this girl who was so superstitious and believed in all kinds of weird shit and didnt even know what evolution is about(seriously what the fuck), and he listened to the stuff she said, i mean he wont even listen to philosophy from great authors, because science > all and nothing else matters to him.. He needs some authority figure of pussy or he wont listen what you say to him. ).....
    That's hysterical and some what accurate. They kinda sponge on the NeFi.

    ).....[/QUOTE])

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Second part: I dont really get what you mean with this?(for that one thing about part 3, i would stop you here and ask for clarification and i dont see how INTJ just listening and not understanding can be a positive thing as it leads to misunderstandings on some small stuff that never come up and slowly distort your view about each others).).....
    Oh, this adescription of a disucussion of an abstract idea-kinda like this convo. During a discussion of a relationship it can be extremely direct and participatory. This is interesting....I think what happens is that a NTP will ask for clarification in a "what about this flaw?" way,

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Third part: YES tell me what everyone did, not what everyone felt if you want me to understand what happened and what caused you to feel bad. Tell me everything that you want to share about it, because you are telling me what you think is important and what you think is important is what is important on understanding you, and understanding you is my aim with listening to you. I dont understand what rest of this part means, but is it important, since it seems like something i dont want?
    hmmm, I get what you are saying....Let me find an example and get your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    A friend once noted that INTP men will seek out "moms' to sort of take care of the day to day details. The INTPs also seem okay with others tweaking on their emotions to change behavior. Both of these are things you would expect out of an ENFJ (I know 6 ENFJ-INTP couples ). The ENFP can sorta mimic ENFJ behaviors at times, so ENFP-INTP relationships can end up in long term marriage.
    To give an IXTP view point. My ex wife(ENFJ) took it upon herself to be the "mom"...someone had to. She failed to realize thats not what I wanted, but she saw it as something she had to do. I am a kid at heart, always will be. When it comes to other stuff I am like an old soul. Those are my biggest 2 sides I flip between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. As the IXTP matures, his inf Fe will emerge and all things Fe become more valued. Old INTPs are like really sarcastic, young ISFJs and can be very judgmental. An odd desire for domestic harmony and tradition emerge, things ENFPs do not provide. The IXTP also can find the extroverted emotions of the ENFP to be inappropriate or "crazy", as they are not processed in the way a display of Fe would be, leaving the ENFP judged via the INTPs shadow function. Quenk calls this out very clearly in “Was that really me?” This cycles badly as the ENFP, feeling rejected upon display of their emotions, will withdraw emotionally from the relationship, until they become very silent and stony.,
    Still waiting to value Fe more then my other functions. The ENFP innappropriate is enjoyable. The only ENFP/INTP interactions I am aware of though is between INTP married men and other ENFP. From what I see the ENFP is not that enjoyable if the INTP is already married, else INTPs are kids at heart as well and get a kick out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    2. The INTPs seem to find ENFPs stupid mostly. The problem is that ENFPs take giant Ne leaps on a skeletal Te structure. Ti, even when backed with Ne, CANNOT follow those leaps-thus a very visceral "bullshit" flag gets called. The INTPs fall back on their tert function-Si-and just cry "stupid". Perhaps at first the INTPs try and be open minded, but after seeing this same leap occur several times, they seem to assume they are dealing with an idiot. Now, no doubt, enfps can be full of bullshit, but we also can be pretty good at flying by the seat of our Te pants in situations where you just need to take a leap rather than try and delineate every single detailed step. We excel at logic in fuzzy areas like market analysis. We thrive on sharing of ideas-but have to learn to respect ISTPs idea space.
    I would say...most wouild probably find that ENFPS lack the attention to detail and must do it themselves. The INTPs I know are not judgemental and very rarely woiuld judge someone as "stupid". Ti prefers to be correct and correct is that the realm that the ENFP is in and making what you refer to as "stupid" decisions means that more work is needed. Ps are open though and will allow you the free roam to do your thing if it creates the outcome "you" want. Now Ti will attempt to analyze and figure out if the outcome you want is really what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    IXTPs also HATE to be told what to do-and ENFPs begin to use Te to try and care for others like a TJ would-thus can seem pretty bossy as we age, thus we can really grate on them by not only telling them what to do, but trying to tell them what to think about an idea, a huge no-no. (Oddly, it is totally okay to mess with their emotions....and tell them what they feel is wrong. *shivers*)
    Yes, we need our freedom of thought. And yes to Te, my mom does this and it drives me nuts. Emotions are different. We dont judge by emotions, so we allow them more free reign then Fi types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    3. The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive? For instance the previous sentence I just typed "The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive" states for ALL Ti users, in EVERY instance of Te usage, assumes that Te is ALWAYS a generalization, and assumes they ALWAYS ALL find it offensive. Another ENFP will read this and recognize the whole thing is a generalization at every step, useful but flexible,-but most Ti users see it and then have to stop and check it against their internal logical system for every single generalization stated...Eventually they just seem to hit too many bumps and say fuck it. The harder you push the idea, the harder they push back.
    Not offensive, just not always the right way to go about things. Its very high level and crude, just as you would see Fe as very high level and crude. After all its generalizations, and Fi/Ti is about fine grain deeper understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The INTJs however, live in Te generalities themselves, so the generality isnt going to typically offend them. Additionally, I have heard many INTJs say "If an idea has even the slightest chance of being true, I'll listen to it". The INTJs love ENFPs as we spew ideas endlessly. We are Ni context generation machines. Now the funny part is that you will have a long convo with the INTJ, think you convinced him of your point, then find yourself argueing the same convo later-"dude, I thought we agreed on this???" They agreed to listen and consider your context, but that doesnt mean they agreed in any way with the idea.. LOL.
    Coming from an ENFP-INTJ parents...the lack of "offending" is due to lack of depth and avoidance. The second I pull Te out of my dad it offends my mom alot...hence INTJs tend to avoid Te and ENFPs tend to avoid Fi and become an INTJs Te. Maybe this is just long term results. I didnt know my parents interactions when I was young.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    4. ENFPs will communicate in Fi, then Te. Thus they share about their own experiences, in a desire to prompt the other person to share about their experiences-mirroring. Then they problem solve by giving suggestions-Te. Thus it sounds alternately selfish, then bossy from the perspective of inferior Fe given it is totally backwards from Ti/Fe communication patterns. When stressed the enfp will revert to Te to gain control of the situation-which can seem really controlling to the INTP.
    Yeah, again...I dont look for people to tell me what to do. I take advice as suggestions, but thats not how to emotionally connect with me. Look at your reasoning..."to help"...it does not align with "intimacy" with me...it does with ENFPs, but my intimacy is different. So this is more about...what type of relationship do you want to harbour...I know your "married", but what is it that you are going after?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Instaed-the enfp needs to share and use emotion in a soothing way to request change from the IXTP. It feels really *ewwww* at first, feels terribly manipulative and even abusive, but is like speaking the correct language.
    Personally enjoyable, like you said...the correct language....but you hjave to remember soothing...the fakeness has nothing to do with the tone. Not saying ENFPs are always fake, but IxTPs prefer real emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The enfp will also want to talk problems to death in terms of what each DID, not what each FELT. This is amazingly easy with an INTJ, but with an IXTP ends up snagged up as you have to convert actions back into emotional requests. It is very...confusing.
    Again, not an issue. It doesnt mean it actually affects us though as much as it does an ENFP or an INTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    5. The IXTPs will tend to place the burden of structuring the outside world onto the enfp-bills, appontiments and so on. The enfp sucks at this, gets stressed, becomes more Te-ish, which sets up a cycle in which the IXTP feels more and more bossed around and controlled-while the enfp feels more and more burdened unfairly. This seems to result in the end of the relationship as it is a nasty cycle.
    Actually this is part of how my ENFJ relationsip ended. She couldnt manage everything, I took over, she became extremely critical of how I did it, I handed it back to her because I got tired of dealing with her crap. With ENFP team work I have experienced...things get looked at objectively and judged...was it worth the lack of perfection to avoid my frustration. This cycle happens rather quickly for IxTP/ENFP. With IxTP/ENFJ it drags on slowly and over time to build up to alot of frustration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    One last bit-Based upon what my ENTP friend has told me, Ti users have some sense of value/importance/merit/respect from others attached to the actual idea, just as we attach our sense of self to our internal Fi values. If you attack the INTPs ideas harshly and bluntly, in a rough tert Te manner, you may be devaluing him as a person . (An INTJ may seem attached to the actual idea, but rather fears being incompetent...thus will defend the extroverted idea vigorously and defensively..)
    We do have value because its our belief system, but imposing that value onto you we dont do...if stressed you may pick up that it bothers us and that bothers you. But that is not us imposing it, but you feeling judged. With ISTPs this is more about actions, not ideas...INTPS may be different.
    Im out, its been fun

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