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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    I'm fairly certain you missed my overarching point.
    U mean I didnt prove it?
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #42
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    U mean I didnt prove it?
    No, you made an excellent case for my point in a way.

    What did you think my point was?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    No, you made an excellent case for my point in a way.

    What did you think my point was?
    Thats what I just said

    You had a point? I was just trying to create some type of truth in regard to the whole thing. I wasnt trying to prove your "point" wrong.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #44
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Thats what I just said
    You also showed how Ti users fail to engage INTJs on our own terms (by simply not engaging with my point about the INTPs (TPs in general perhaps) not being open to INTJs and how this could have a detrimental effect when it comes to fully understanding something).

    Anyway, sorry for being so difficult, but some days I feel particularly iconoclastic wrt Ti usurpation and condescension (it's connected to Fe somehow) . In French people would say "je ne le supporte plus".

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    You also showed how Ti users fail to engage INTJs on our own terms (by simply not engaging with my point about the INTPs (TPs in general perhaps) not being open to INTJs and how this could have a detrimental effect when it comes to fully understanding something).

    Anyway, sorry for being so difficult, but some days I feel particularly iconoclastic wrt Ti usurpation and condescension.
    On your own terms? You lost me with this whole "our own terms" and "engaging my point of view". I thought this was about Oro and INTPs? You are just merely a side show of the main topic

    edit: sorry, that whole side show thing was uncalled for
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #46
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    On your own terms? You lost me with this whole "our own terms" and "engaging my point of view". I thought this was about Oro and INTPs? You are just merely a side show of the main topic
    Ah you sly fox. You sicken me.

  7. #47
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    INTJ systemic integrity is due to the fact that it relies on Ni frameworks and lack of consistent frameworks would cause issue with how a dom Ni views the world. IxTPs may need a little systemic freedom, but its actually a half a wave length prior to that. We have no problems with systemic integrity, but we need "true" systemic integrity. IxTJs would be fine with systemic consistancy, not quite so much integrity. Difference between Aux Te and Inferior Fe.
    Ni doesn't lack a consistent framework. Its consistency is merely invisible to others (often even other Ni types). Why do you think you perceive IJ's as holding onto "beliefs" in spite of the evidence, as you say? You notice the consistency when you don't like it or cannot reason with it.

    Really, the problem is that the Ni perception is in a different "space", and sees different "evidence." A reciprocal problem exists for Ti doms: they have a great deal of logical self-consistency, but it relies upon its own "Ti-space" and its own understandings, which aren't easily conveyed in a few short sentences. It's possible to map the two to each other, and understand (and even agree) with each others' final conclusions ... with the caveat that each is going to regard the others' methods as "too much work", because each is predisposed to think differently. A successful such conversation often ends with the phrase, "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?" The actual ideas are often trivial, mere building blocks, but because the building blocks are different from one's own, it's easy to insist that the other's building blocks are "wrong."

    All of the introverted functions appear "stubborn" to others in this regard: they reflect the inner understandings that comprise nearly the entirety of one's life experience. One does not just simply change those because someone else says you're wrong; they require time and reflection, and don't respond well to being rushed.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ni doesn't lack a consistent framework. Its consistency is merely invisible to others (often even other Ni types). Why do you think you perceive IJ's as holding onto "beliefs" in spite of the evidence, as you say? You notice the consistency when you don't like it or cannot reason with it.

    Really, the problem is that the Ni perception is in a different "space", and sees different "evidence." A reciprocal problem exists for Ti doms: they have a great deal of logical self-consistency, but it relies upon its own "Ti-space" and its own understandings, which aren't easily conveyed in a few short sentences. It's possible to map the two to each other, and understand (and even agree) with each others' final conclusions ... with the caveat that each is going to regard the others' methods as "too much work", because each is predisposed to think differently. A successful such conversation often ends with the phrase, "Well, why didn't you say so in the first place?" The actual ideas are often trivial, mere building blocks, but because the building blocks are different from one's own, it's easy to insist that the other's building blocks are "wrong."

    All of the introverted functions appear "stubborn" to others in this regard: they reflect the inner understandings that comprise nearly the entirety of one's life experience. One does not just simply change those because someone else says you're wrong; they require time and reflection, and don't respond well to being rushed.
    I never said Ni lacks a consistant framework...i said that Ni needs a consistant framework or they would have problems. Do u have problems? Ni's frameworks are far from invisible..what Ni tends to hide is purpose, not framework. This purpose is then projected onto others. Ni Framework is actually very visible as thats what they use all the time. Sometimes they get stuck on a framework though as they need that consistancy.

    Actually me and INTJs disagree alot. Its actually a reason why we work good together. We share Ni though so we can actually communicate on the same plane of frameworks. I have no issues with lack of agreance, i see it as a positive thing. How its handled determines whether its healthy or not. Growing up with an INTJ, we never used the phrase "why didnt u say so in the first place" or anything even remotely close. That never even crossed my mind, we had a simple goal of bouncing frameworks off of each other. The goal was fixing the problem and we each had our own 2 cents, we each respected the others framework as something willing to try...the right one was what "actually" fixed or provided a solution.

    But when it comes to "life and living" we split ways. My guess is i have Aux Se and his is Inferior. I am also not an emotional person, he is.

    Do u realize your Ni framework is personal and doesnt always apply outside of your own mind. I can project Ti onto the world, but i realize its personal. Its part of what makes me who i am and its the reason why i have the "live and let live" attitude. Its also why i actually listen to others and remain open to what matters to them and try to actually be objective outside of my own logic and thoughts. I have never wanted someone to think like me or be like me and have that type of connection.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #49
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am going to grab a post by @Jenaphor as well-but-how can you trust the one data point not to be anamolous? How do you know that particular Se point is the one that matters? How do you trust it over the others? What distinguishes it from the others?
    Ni synthesis includes extraction from internal databases so it's not as if Se's data are the only points of relevance and reference.

    But I do have to toss the question back to you. How does anyone know that their "conclusions" or "judgments" are accurate and trustworthy, regardless of functions utilised, especially considering how a substantial component of empathy is a projection of our internal lenses?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Ni synthesis includes extraction from internal databases so it's not as if Se's data are the only points of relevance and reference.

    But I do have to toss the question back to you. How does anyone know that their "conclusions" or "judgments" are accurate and trustworthy, regardless of functions utilised, especially considering how a substantial component of empathy is a projection of our internal lenses?
    The other substantial component of empathy is judgement, so even if lenses are identical, our judgement may not be. Thats a part of us being irrational. Its why 2 people can see the exact same thing and come to different conclusions. Not everyone holds the thought that...if they can just see my point of view they will agree with me and also come to the same conclusion..
    Im out, its been fun

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