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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Poki-this sounds a bit Ni to me at first glance? The ability to beleive two things at once, in spite of data? My little intj is convinced all red cars are the fastest, because ummlau's red car if faster than my black car. it is VERY odd to see how he analyzes with Te, but really fascinating.
    My son will think that things are fast based on color, or style. He thought that certain shoes made him run faster and he truly believed they did. We are talking red tennis shoes vs grey tennis shoes. I dont understand "believe 2 things at once inspite of data". IJs tend to believe what they want inspite of data. For example I may try to explain to my son about engines and he always has to come back with, but the "red" makes it faster too. IPs try not to believe anything when it comes to things like that unless its backed up by data or reasoning. The reason is that we do not hold onto things like that very strong. With me the only time I become extremely concrete is when I get stressed about the outcome and I want to avoid the action. Other then that I dont really hold onto any one thing that strong...it comes across as prove it..minus the attitude that normally comes across with "prove it"....hence data reigns supreme...or proof by action. Even when you call me out I really dont care, in that case I know what I do, I know why I do it, and I dont want to bend any further. Some dont bend without major proof or a fight. It comes out to are you stubborn and then bend or do you bend and then become stubborn....whats your normal path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    @jock the motie and @INTP-I think this is the emo manipulation part I was talking about.

    Poki can you eleborate on "The fakeness has nothing to do with the tone"?

    I can very rarely display emotion unless I really feel it-thus to try and be soothing, even if I didnt feel soothing, would be fake and avoided at all costs. However very often, with my ISTP ex-when I need to request his help is when I am the most annoyed, frustrated or upset by what I view (tert Te fail ) as him perhaps not being accountable. Learning i needed to speak in a soothing tone at this point was amazingly valuable, as the sharp Te "harpy" voice seems very jarring to him. Bending my own mind around why it was okay to speak soothingly, when i felt anything but soothing, was essential though. Still a work in progress.
    So you dont know how to adjust your emotions? Internally control them to reach certain places or avoid certain places? Or atleast not very good? I thought that was one way that ENFPs tested people...they use it as a means to analyze, not manipulate. Once figured out it could then move over to manipulate, but thats where morals and values come in. Everyones morals and values are different so whats ok to one is not to another morally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think this captures the biggest IXTP diff. I almost never argued or fought with my ISTP ex, even over the course of ten years. We did not share ideas, though-he thought I was very smart, but thought about "crazy stuff". I was extremely careful to give his free range on actions and his passion for adventure. Often I was home alone, but this wasnt a big deal.

    With an INTP, I think I''d have to learn to tone down the knee-jerk Te on the ide front, as we are both playing in the same space-abstract idea land.

    INTPs, I noted my ISTP worked to keep his actions very seperate from me-like he needed a partition. Do you note this about your ideas?
    I dont get the not sharing ideas part. I am very big on listening to others and sharing ideas, especially ideas based on past experience. I am not traditional in that whats in the past is right and needs to be followed, but that what happened in the past proves that its true under a certain set of circumstances. So an idea based off of the past is more "try at your own risk" since every situation is different and one small data point could cause something to not work or cause you to have to do things slightly different.

    I am not that strong of an S to always have to be on adventures. I am just a busy body...different thing altogether. I dont need adventure, I just need to be doing things. Difference, when bored I will tag along just to be doing something, even if its just something like shopping. And when I do that the walking around and talking and stuff is good enough for me, I dont need an adventure. I do enjoy physical things, but I am not big into adventures....though when I am bored I will always tag along for just about anything. But busy body just means I always like to be doing things, not I always have to be on an adventure. My mind is not inquisitive enough in the right way to turn something into an adventure. Life just is, I see things as more of a physical challeneg, not an adventure.
    Im out, its been fun

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    dig through my own crap though and I cant tolerate dishonesty in myself. I have to understand the truth above all else
    Doesn't it hurt?

    As I said - I am not questioning your type. I was curious. Thanks.

  3. #33
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    Doesn't it hurt?

    As I said - I am not questioning your type. I was curious. Thanks.
    edit- my apologies, Istbkleta, I misquoted you as questioning, when you were seeking clarification. This is a distinct detail fail on my part.

    Asfor the question, until one lets go of the ego attachment, yes. But eventually one learns that the outcome of acknowledging and correcting misperceptions and projections, misunderstandings, is internal peace and solidity, and very often, delightful, brand new ways to perceive the world, new beauty to be discovered<< Hmm......I suspect new Ne playgrounds are my reward for the masochistic internal never ending remodelling project. Nowdays-I find it enjoyable and exciting to get caught being wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    My son will think that things are fast based on color, or style. He thought that certain shoes made him run faster and he truly believed they did. We are talking red tennis shoes vs grey tennis shoes. I dont understand "believe 2 things at once inspite of data". IJs tend to believe what they want inspite of data. .
    The Ni doms dont have a consistent set of rules-for instance, thus they can use a bit of astrology, a bit of mbti, a bit of ennea, not beleive in the full validity of any of the systems, then come to a conclusion using these bits of each system and be perfectly comfy-as long as "it works" for the specific situation. This mish-mash approach is mind boggling to me, totally freaks me out. But hysterically funny to watch develop in a four year old. (But we never laugh and we take him very seriously)

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    For example I may try to explain to my son about engines and he always has to come back with, but the "red" makes it faster too. IPs try not to believe anything when it comes to things like that unless its backed up by data or reasoning. The reason is that we do not hold onto things like that very strong. With me the only time I become extremely concrete is when I get stressed about the outcome and I want to avoid the action. Other then that I dont really hold onto any one thing that strong...it comes across as prove it..minus the attitude that normally comes across with "prove it"....hence data reigns supreme...or proof by action. Even when you call me out I really dont care, in that case I know what I do, I know why I do it, and I dont want to bend any further. Some dont bend without major proof or a fight. It comes out to are you stubborn and then bend or do you bend and then become stubborn....whats your normal path..
    Poki-could the not holding on very strong actually be your own Ni? But led by Ti to rely upon those facts, reasons and evidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    So you dont know how to adjust your emotions? Internally control them to reach certain places or avoid certain places? Or atleast not very good? I thought that was one way that ENFPs tested people...they use it as a means to analyze, not manipulate. Once figured out it could then move over to manipulate, but thats where morals and values come in. Everyones morals and values are different so whats ok to one is not to another morally. ..
    umm, no? can you clarify "places"? My emotions are like sitting on top of a planet with dormant volcanos-if I get hurt, suddenly I have lava flowing out all of them at once and I am using my hands to try and squich it back down or keep it in. Even happy emo can be like this-it is very sputtery. I think you learn to control them with time-by recognizing that even though the emo is flowing everywhere, that within a short time period it will settle down again and you will be in control. Then the next time it happens, simply by understanding it will settle with time and that the hurt will end, it makes the eruption less. The healthiest way is to allow the lava to flow everywhere, as the tighter you try and contain it, the worse the eruption will be eventually. However you cant really allow lava-emo to spew out at other people (I have been guilty of this at times), as it is hurtful, unsettling and nonproductive, so often in public, it is best contained.

    When calm, I can carress people with emotion and sweetness, but it always real and meant well. Oddly, I learn less by doing this, then by talking with them-this emotional carass is more meant to comfort and acknowledge the beauty of them as a unique individual, to signify they are valued and are an amazing and fascinating, simply as they are?

    ^^These descriptions are highly specific to me though and how I use my emotions.

    [QUOTE=_Poki_;1766095]


    I dont get the not sharing ideas part. I am very big on listening to others and sharing ideas, especially ideas based on past experience. I am not traditional in that whats in the past is right and needs to be followed, but that what happened in the past proves that its true under a certain set of circumstances. So an idea based off of the past is more "try at your own risk" since every situation is different and one small data point could cause something to not work or cause you to have to do things slightly different.
    [\QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Reread what I wrote. Se pulls external data. Ni synthesizes. Te concludes through categorisation.
    I am going to grab a post by @Jenaphor as well-but-how can you trust the one data point not to be anamolous? How do you know that particular Se point is the one that matters? How do you trust it over the others? What distinguishes it from the others?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The Ni doms dont have a consistent set of rules-for instance, thus they can use a bit of astrology, a bit of mbti, a bit of ennea, not beleive in the full validity of any of the systems, then come to a conclusion using these bits of each system and be perfectly comfy-as long as "it works" for the specific situation. This mish-mash approach is mind boggling to me, totally freaks me out. But hysterically funny to watch develop in a four year old. (But we never laugh and we take him very seriously)
    Yeah, analogies help them understand alot. You see the "it works" for a specific situation...thats goal oriented thinking. The cause is the goal, the effect is what happened to reach the cause...you see where blame can come into play? You made me do XYZ...when in reality...you made pushed for the goal, which is the cause. Everything else is the effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Poki-could the not holding on very strong actually be your own Ni? But led by Ti to rely upon those facts, reasons and evidence?
    Ti and Se wants to get to the bottom of things(so does TiNe), but isnt goal oriented, so we dont have a specific things we actually hold onto as that would be steering and would screw with actual learning. We dont define the bottom usually other then its better then where we are at. From there we just push to try improve things as we progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    umm, no? can you clarify "places"? My emotions are like sitting on top of a planet with dormant volcanos-if I get hurt, suddenly I have lava flowing out all of them at once and I am using my hands to try and squich it back down or keep it in. Even happy emo can be like this-it is very sputtery. I think you learn to control them with time-by recognizing that even though the emo is flowing everywhere, that within a short time period it will settle down again and you will be in control. Then the next time it happens, simply by understanding it will settle with time and that the hurt will end, it makes the eruption less. The healthiest way is to allow the lava to flow everywhere, as the tighter you try and contain it, the worse the eruption will be eventually. However you cant really allow lava-emo to spew out at other people (I have been guilty of this at times), as it is hurtful, unsettling and nonproductive, so often in public, it is best contained.

    When calm, I can carress people with emotion and sweetness, but it always real and meant well. Oddly, I learn less by doing this, then by talking with them-this emotional carass is more meant to comfort and acknowledge the beauty of them as a unique individual, to signify they are valued and are an amazing and fascinating, simply as they are?
    Yup, and sometimes lifes not fair and that volcano erupts on those around you. This is one lesson I had to teach my son a long time ago. Not about me, but about everyone he has to deal/work with as thats a part of life. Not even about ENFPs as I really dont type people a whole lot unless its obvious because I dont really hold onto this stuff to define a person, I let them define themself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am going to grab a post by @Jenaphor as well-but-how can you trust the one data point not to be anamolous? How do you know that particular Se point is the one that matters? How do you trust it over the others? What distinguishes it from the others?
    That I cant explain, wish I could. Its just something that comes natural without even thinking about it. I actually have people ask me all the time how I figure things out, how I piece stuff together. I dont know, its part of my personality and how I am wired. I could ask the same of Ne, for some reason Ne gives alot of credit to N, but for some reason it seems to extend into this N is better then S thing when it comes to the realm of understanding and making connections.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #35
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I am going to grab a post by @Jenaphor as well-but-how can you trust the one data point not to be anamolous? How do you know that particular Se point is the one that matters? How do you trust it over the others? What distinguishes it from the others?
    It's the old Sesame Street thing: one of these things is not like the others.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U"].[/YOUTUBE]

    The main difference is that it isn't obvious to everyone else, it's just obvious to Ni. Why? Because we have patterns of behavior mapped out in our heads, and those patterns can be very intricate. We Te/Se observe the world around us, and see a mismatch pattern of behavior that sticks out like a sore thumb.

    The particular way the mismatch occurs can tell us a lot. Sometimes it is obviously bad data, because it implies an absurd truth. (We might pay more attention if the same absurd truth is implied in other ways, but otherwise it's just a spurious data point.) Sometimes it implies something else about the real world that is otherwise invisible - and correspondingly, we can use that implication to judge/analyze/observe yet other things. When we're young, it usually implies that we're wrong, and we correct the error. As we age, the errors become more rare, since it's really part of a whole system of Ni-Te-understanding which has had most (but not all) of its errors addressed.

    So it isn't as if we just saw one thing, and changed an entire worldview from it. Rather, we saw one thing, and it was very different in an intriguing way. It slightly alters the worldview, but to others, because we end up judging things superficially differently, it looks like a completely different worldview.

    I've often analogized this to a gem with many facets. The Ni-dom sees the whole gem. Others see a single facet. A piece of data has us make an adjustment to the rotation of the gem, and suddenly others see a completely new facet that was always there, but never in the material world. E.g., my taking up dance lessons. It was kind of always there, but never realized until recently.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It's the old Sesame Street thing: one of these things is not like the others.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueZ6tvqhk8U"].[/YOUTUBE]

    The main difference is that it isn't obvious to everyone else, it's just obvious to Ni. Why? Because we have patterns of behavior mapped out in our heads, and those patterns can be very intricate. We Te/Se observe the world around us, and see a mismatch pattern of behavior that sticks out like a sore thumb.

    The particular way the mismatch occurs can tell us a lot. Sometimes it is obviously bad data, because it implies an absurd truth. (We might pay more attention if the same absurd truth is implied in other ways, but otherwise it's just a spurious data point.) Sometimes it implies something else about the real world that is otherwise invisible - and correspondingly, we can use that implication to judge/analyze/observe yet other things. When we're young, it usually implies that we're wrong, and we correct the error. As we age, the errors become more rare, since it's really part of a whole system of Ni-Te-understanding which has had most (but not all) of its errors addressed.

    So it isn't as if we just saw one thing, and changed an entire worldview from it. Rather, we saw one thing, and it was very different in an intriguing way. It slightly alters the worldview, but to others, because we end up judging things superficially differently, it looks like a completely different worldview.

    I've often analogized this to a gem with many facets. The Ni-dom sees the whole gem. Others see a single facet. A piece of data has us make an adjustment to the rotation of the gem, and suddenly others see a completely new facet that was always there, but never in the material world. E.g., my taking up dance lessons. It was kind of always there, but never realized until recently.
    For my its like fuzzy logic...the combination of Ti and Ni. Ti understand this "fuzzy" and has judged Ni as "you arent right, but I trust you". This analogy can probably be switched over to TiSi as well. Ti says you(Si) arent right, but you have good points so I will let you hang around.
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #37
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This sounds very accurate. I would say the things we are projecting end up being an analytical mask of sorts-based upon our personal histories and our ability to generalize, when we encounter a new situation, we try and map it back to an old situation by applying our analytical mask onto the problem, our worldview. Do you think you notice ENFP projection more as it results in answers that are so very different from your own-thus highly inaccurate if applied to you?

    I notice NFJ projection of this type the most, as often the answers, when applied to enfps, can be totally bizarre, even a bit funny at times, especially with the projection of underlying motive, which can be very incorrect.

    But what I also question with NFJs-what are they "seeing" that I cant see? Are they seeing a part of myself, that I cant quite see correctly? Like trying to look at the back of your head in a mirror?
    Again, I think it's just ENFPs seeing what they want to see in situations and in people. INTs, by default, are trying to strip away any and all of themselves from what they're seeing so I think it just stands out to them. Also again, this quality to ENFPs is part of what gives you that nickname, The Champion, and that penchant for idealism. You are dreamers, future changers, idealists and idea people at heart, so it's very difficult for you to see anything other than the abstracted, future, GOOD of a thing or person. You WANT to see these things, they excite and sustain you. You're susceptible to being disappointed when these things don't come true, and why you can take on people projects as well as have a tendency to go after Peter Pans.

    NFJs I think can project their expected atmospheres of propriety on to environments and hold everyone accountable to them, as they see them as "obvious." They may apply motives to you, because they see expressed emotion as generally having a purpose and a function, so they infer based on that.




    I do agree that you are correct in that often we are just NeTe-ing our way along. But If the introverted element was Fi, would you be able to sense it?

    This will trigger your BS sensor, but I'd ask you to at least consider it a bit...

    The INFPs often use Fi to judge aesthetics, not morals or values. Moving further, many ENFPs decsribe "groping", "feeling", or reaching out kinesthetically to dervie the best answer to technical or analytical problems. @noigmn specifically described using this in physics, I note it in troubleshooting technical issues with instrumentation. It feels like touching the subject at hand from a very high level-30,000 ft. You close your eyes, look at the problem in your mind, and then touch it with your hand while looking away from it (all in your mind of course). You explore the problem, the complex mesh, the conditions with a very visceral approach-I feel it in my stomach. Eventully you find a lump. The lump is the crux of the problem. It is where all the parts are intertangled. That is the answer to the technial problem.

    This visceral feeling is exactly like facing a values based delimma-the same visceral lump is felt, but there isnt any sadness or emo, just visceral groping, like a blind person touching an object.

    This all sounds like crazy bullshit-except that it works very, very well in troubleshooting scientific instrumentation. I cant tell you why the problem is the problem, in a detailed step by step sense, but I am pretty certain it is the correct problem. I dont think it is NeTe-that seems to happen without the viseral component.

    My point (I really do have one, in spite of the babble), is that I think this is on way we can use Fi. Fi isnt simply a feelings based judgement for values, but an analytical tool that can be applied to other items. I suspect it fails if applied to pure logic, Ti is far more applicable, but using Fi this way works pretty well on insanely sloppy problems.

    Now assuming any of the above babble could be true, would an NeTe solution or a vsiceral NeFiTe solution look the same from your perspective?
    The NeFiTe solution would make more sense to me. Your description of visceral idea groping also makes perfect sense to me. I understand the process very well, I just don't use your terms, and even your terms are different than another Fi users terms @mmhmm calls them blobs, you call them lumps. I'm sure someone else calls them whatever they'd like.

    INTPs are used to introverted reasoning, some of it will be familiar and we'll just have to translate, which I haven't found too hard. The nice thing is that Ne is shared so it should be comparatively easy for the ENFP point to a concept and say, "see how this unfolds?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ?!?!??!?!?!?!" while the INTP grunts an affirmative.



    Can you clarify logistics? I always think of logistics as very Te sorts of things involving, well, logistics, , and I figured Ti objections might be more purely to the logic?
    Ti has its own version of logistics; in this sense Ti is concerned with the structural integrity of an idea rather than some external data point out there in the world and is simply telling you that the path you're on creates some "this doesn't make sense" issue that will have to be addressed.


    @jock the motie and @INTP-I think this is the emo manipulation part I was talking about.

    I can very rarely display emotion unless I really feel it-thus to try and be soothing, even if I didnt feel soothing, would be fake and avoided at all costs. However very often, with my ISTP ex-when I need to request his help is when I am the most annoyed, frustrated or upset by what I view (tert Te fail ) as him perhaps not being accountable. Learning i needed to speak in a soothing tone at this point was amazingly valuable, as the sharp Te "harpy" voice seems very jarring to him. Bending my own mind around why it was okay to speak soothingly, when i felt anything but soothing, was essential though. Still a work in progress.
    I think it's less that you have to be soothing than it is you just can't appear to be in the grips of a psychotic episode, which for ENFPs can be difficult. To me, "soothing" would just seem to be calm, and "harpy" flavored with any kind of function is the absolute best way for anybody to ignore you. To us, extreme emotion or excitability can automatically= not thinking clearly.

    INTPs, I noted my ISTP worked to keep his actions very seperate from me-like he needed a partition. Do you note this about your ideas?
    I don't think so. I tend to be eager to share, and you guys tend to be eager to listen.



  8. #38
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    The Ni doms dont have a consistent set of rules-for instance, thus they can use a bit of astrology, a bit of mbti, a bit of ennea, not beleive in the full validity of any of the systems, then come to a conclusion using these bits of each system and be perfectly comfy-as long as "it works" for the specific situation. This mish-mash approach is mind boggling to me, totally freaks me out. But hysterically funny to watch develop in a four year old. (But we never laugh and we take him very seriously)
    In this light it's unbelievable that we're constantly called close-minded by INTPs, in general, INTPs' harsh criticism of INTJ cognition (or really, just of INTJs, it seems to be a recurring phenomenon) just boggles the mind in the context of their quest for truth (unless of course you define truth the INTP way bla bla). The whole Ti user thinking of you as a fool thing you detailed certainly is relatable. Perhaps I'm just oversensitive to Ti(Fe), but seriously, yo...how about you extend to us the same understanding you seem to crave, it seems like the more (intellecually) fair option.

    Take a text:

    If you only see it as a means to convey preconceived (Fi/Ti) ideas, you will miss the opportunity of making meaning through the construction of the text itself, through using it as a frame, as a lense, as a level on which you can make meaningful connections and create coherence. (archetype probably INP)

    If you get too hung up on the framing, on making meaning, investigating, being creative, in the process of the text, you will end up with a very intricate frame that's pretty empty however. (archetype probably INJ)

    Why would you forego either option?

    A little bit of systemic integrity goes a long way for INTJs (Fi?), I imagine the same might be true for INTPs and systemic freedom (Si?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    In this light it's unbelievable that we're constantly called close-minded by INTPs, in general, INTPs' harsh criticism of INTJ cognition (or really, just of INTJs, it seems to be a recurring phenomenon) just boggles the mind in the context of their quest for truth (unless of course you define truth the INTP way bla bla). The whole Ti user thinking of you as a fool thing you detailed certainly is relatable. Perhaps I'm just oversensitive to Ti, but seriously, yo.

    Take a text:

    If you only see it as a means to convey preconceived (Fi/Ti) ideas, you will miss the opportunity of making meaning through the construction of the text itself, through using it as a frame, as a lense, as a level on which you can make meaningful connections and create coherence. (archetype probably INP)

    If you get too hung up on the framing, on making meaning, investigating, being creative, in the process of the text, you will end up with a very intricate frame that's pretty empty however. (archetype probably INJ)

    Why would you forego either option?

    A little bit of systemic integrity goes a long way for INTJs (Fi?), I imagine the same might be true for INTPs and systemic freedom (Si?).
    Thats where Se/Ne come into play for IPs. Everyone has there own meaning though. Its possible to make meaningful connectins without actually being the meaning itself...as meaningful is in the eye of the beholder. In life I make alot of meaningful connections, but I dont hold on real tight to the meaning as the meanings change and adapt with each person. Plus IxTJ meaningful connections are usually through Fi, just as IxTPs meaningful connections are through Ni/Si.

    INTJ systemic integrity is due to the fact that it relies on Ni frameworks and lack of consistent frameworks would cause issue with how a dom Ni views the world. IxTPs may need a little systemic freedom, but its actually a half a wave length prior to that. We have no problems with systemic integrity, but we need "true" systemic integrity. IxTJs would be fine with systemic consistancy, not quite so much integrity. Difference between Aux Te and Inferior Fe.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #40
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Thats where Se/Ne come into play for IPs. Everyone has there own meaning though. Its possible to make meaningful connectins without actually being the meaning itself...as meaningful is in the eye of the beholder. In life I make alot of meaningful connections, but I dont hold on real tight to the meaning as the meanings change and adapt with each person. Plus IxTJ meaningful connections are usually through Fi, just as IxTPs meaningful connections are through Ni/Si.

    INTJ systemic integrity is due to the fact that it relies on Ni frameworks and lack of consistent frameworks would cause issue with how a dom Ni views the world. IxTPs may need a little systemic freedom, but its actually a half a wave length prior to that. We have no problems with systemic integrity, but we need "true" systemic integrity. IxTJs would be fine with systemic consistancy, not quite so much integrity. Difference between Aux Te and Inferior Fe.
    I'm fairly certain you missed my overarching point.

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    Last Post: 02-03-2014, 12:58 AM

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