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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    As a eNTJ, Se/Ni play a bigger role in trying to gauge the feelings of others. I watch for signs and vibes, then internally synthesize what those signs/vibes mean. Te slots them into general categories like danger/need to ask/someone's angry/etc. and extroverts my action/reaction.
    Understanding feelings(or anything) reguires J function, S and N are irrational functions, they dont make evaluations of any kind. But throught Ni you are able to put in together different judgments, but its not Ni that does the evaluation.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #22
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    well i can't say i really know much about INTP-ENFP romantic relationships, but i have an INTP dad and little brother. i don't really know that i've really run across these problems in our relationships... or at least, if i have, they seem to be minor.

    the problems i think stand out most are:

    1. personal vs. impersonal (Fi vs Ti)

    INTPs are impersonal perfectionists by nature; that is the nature of the Ti thought pattern. ENFPs are personal perfectionists by nature; that is the nature of the Fi thought pattern. as such, INTPs tend to look for/at impersonal problems and address things in impersonal lights. ENFPs look for/at personal problems and address things in personal lights.

    which means the INTP says totally impersonal things that the ENFP interprets personally and feels like they are all about themself and gets hurt (and points out what a meanie the INTP is), and the ENFP says personal things that the INTP takes impersonally and the ENFP's point is lost and the INTP feels like they have not been listened to/understood and gets hurt (and points out what a dunderhead the ENFP is).

    i suspect part of why mmhmm and jock are so good for each other is she is a less-personally-sensitive ENFP and from my own experience i imagine that smooths a lot of things.

    2. logic (dom Ti vs tert Te)

    there is a problem: the TV is messed up. only half the screen is showing the picture. INTP's first instinct is to play around with the controls, play around with the settings, try to fix it. ENFP's first instinct is to chuck it and go buy a new TV.

    there is another problem: we need to pack the car for the beach. ENFP starts hauling stuff outside and stuffing it in the car. INTP dad wants to arrange everything so it is heavy-to-light from the bottom up, everything fits in each little nook and cranny, space is maximized... INTP brother is inside making sure he has each and every CD he wants and that it is in its proper place and clean and in his backpack with every other little thing he wants to have...

    ie, dom Ti takes a lot longer than ENFP Te. ENFP Te is a lot more cursory than dom Ti. dom Ti sometimes makes everyone wait on it and is incredibly perfectionistic. ENFP Te will chuck your things out left and right because it don't have much patience for impersonal things that don't seem to matter much to us. (jock is also right about ENFP tendency to glorify Te. i think this is less because we think it is cute and more because it helps us actually do measurably productive things in the real world, which we would probably tend not to do otherwise.)

    3. how to care (Fi vs Fe)

    INTPs do Fe style caring. Ti ethics provide their foundation for what is Right and it is processed outwardly with Fe style interpersonal engagement. respect is paramount; caring gestures are paramount; understanding the nature of the relationship and what the needs of the people in the relationship are is paramount. ENFPs, of course, do Fi style caring. caring thought is paramount; unveiled self-expression is paramount; understanding the motivations and emotions of both people is paramount.

    we have trouble expressing care sometimes because we are seeking and giving in very different ways. the INTPs i know tend to show care by doing, whereas ENFPs tend to show care via words. i tend to pique and show concern when INTP emotions are running high, but INTP seems to care about emotion way less than i do - like it's just something that happens, usually, more than something that needs addressing.

    4. Ps are easily distracted

    when we both slack off and there's not a J around, it's not good.


    i don't run into many Ne problems with INTPs. they're idea people too. they're more into refining ideas whereas i'm more into synthesizing new ideas but we work together well when we've settled on a singular project. i think mostly it boils down to ENFP is a visionary fluffball and INTP is a conceptual mechanic.

  3. #23
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Thanks for the intresting read. The nfp - ntp frontier is quite undiscovered imo and since I am living together with my infp for 7 years now, I always am intrested in the topic. I'ld like to comment a bit on your points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. As the IXTP matures, his inf Fe will emerge and all things Fe become more valued. Old INTPs are like really sarcastic, young ISFJs and can be very judgmental. An odd desire for domestic harmony and tradition emerge, things ENFPs do not provide. The IXTP also can find the extroverted emotions of the ENFP to be inappropriate or "crazy", as they are not processed in the way a display of Fe would be, leaving the ENFP judged via the INTPs shadow function. Quenk calls this out very clearly in “Was that really me?” This cycles badly as the ENFP, feeling rejected upon display of their emotions, will withdraw emotionally from the relationship, until they become very silent and stony.
    I as a P am basically a big friend of the attitude "live and let live". Therefore I dont care so much about what crazy stuff my gf does as long as it makes her happy. If she's happy, I am happy as well. This gets problematic when she's suffering, cause sadly God has made her a very lovely authentic and idealistic person what in the piranha basin that is the World often leads to her getting mobbed. She has no problem with defending herself and she is a very dominant personality and does assume the role of the pack leader in every group quite quickly, still I sometimes would like to get some of the burden of her shoulders, she feels because she thinks people are assholes.

    This has proven to not work out, because I am a faker and manipulator and I put up a role in society so I can make my way. She is authentic and its her greatest goal being so, therefore the hints I could give her are basically not useful.

    the thing that unites us is that I have the impression of 98% of the people I daily meet being stupid and unwise. So me wearing the tshirt "I am with stupid" and she wearing the tshirt "I am with assholes" unites us. What I tho do not understand why we exactly sought that out as well in a relationship. I wouldnt say my gf is stupid on the contrary she has way better grades than I ever had, but she often is totally out of reality in a dream world and reality always manages to hammer down on her. Ya and she sought out an asshole, tho she likes them the least. Well thats another story...

    Regarding the "was that really me aspect", I see a possible problem here. The thing is, tho I am a p, I live my life like a J. I am the boss at work, at home and am a big fan of generalizations and "just the facts" please. This is an attitude that has put itself up for me due to being overwhelmed with work and tasks to accomplish. If you have a lot to do at some point you stop philosophieng and just see that you get shit done. This is very good for my girlfriend, because I speak to her crumbled Te a lot and help her alot with organisation and getting shits done. She on the other hand is a mirror for myself as well, because like she is at the moment, a procrastinator, shows me like I was before. That way I can recognize that I have changed, I visually see my "level up" thats a mandatory thing for entps, cause we are such chameleons at times, we dont recognize change of ourselves.

    It can happen that my S shadow shines when I am stressed out and I become a cruel "by the rules" version of an ISTJ. My gf but can soothe me in that respect and make me chill again.

    I can say so much: the Fe/Fi and Te/Ti combo doesnt work at all. She is a challenge for me 24/7 but and thats the kicker, its exactly what I need: a challenge. Since I am together with my gf I accomplished so much like I didnt in all my life before. And its the same for her. So the troubles we have, made us both grow beyond our limits and she being a constant task for me, does prevent me from falling asleep. Cause I can grow bored so quickly with the word that I would, living alone, end up as an alcoholic having no job. I was already on that path and hadnt I met my gf I would be there right now.

    What she likes about me I can hardly tell, I wouldnt like me. But I am sure she has her reasons (at least I hope she has ).


    2. The INTPs seem to find ENFPs stupid mostly. The problem is that ENFPs take giant Ne leaps on a skeletal Te structure. Ti, even when backed with Ne, CANNOT follow those leaps-thus a very visceral "bullshit" flag gets called. The INTPs fall back on their tert function-Si-and just cry "stupid". Perhaps at first the INTPs try and be open minded, but after seeing this same leap occur several times, they seem to assume they are dealing with an idiot. Now, no doubt, enfps can be full of bullshit, but we also can be pretty good at flying by the seat of our Te pants in situations where you just need to take a leap rather than try and delineate every single detailed step. We excel at logic in fuzzy areas like market analysis. We thrive on sharing of ideas-but have to learn to respect ISTPs idea space.

    IXTPs also HATE to be told what to do-and ENFPs begin to use Te to try and care for others like a TJ would-thus can seem pretty bossy as we age, thus we can really grate on them by not only telling them what to do, but trying to tell them what to think about an idea, a huge no-no. (Oddly, it is totally okay to mess with their emotions....and tell them what they feel is wrong. *shivers*)
    I think that has to be delegated a bit. The thing is, as you portraied it, having a F function basically makes you automatically stupid or incapable to function in society. I think thats part of an inferior complex resulting from tert / forth T. The same I have with F, having F subdued, I have the inferior complex to assume I wouldnt feel as much as anyone else. But thats not true.

    So in that regards, I personally think of enfps that they are unwise. I often dont agree on their open door policy regarding relationships or the way they chum up with people. Still I think "live and let live" and there are those and those enfps. I'ld judge someone being dumb tho by the special case and wouldnt say all enfps are dumb. I am very sure that intps dont think so as well. They may feel at times like all enfps are dumb, because of said attitudes they could disagree with, but being rational thinkers, they'ld know that generalizations are the end of science.

    3. The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive? For instance the previous sentence I just typed "The Ti users across the board find Te generalization....offensive" states for ALL Ti users, in EVERY instance of Te usage, assumes that Te is ALWAYS a generalization, and assumes they ALWAYS ALL find it offensive. Another ENFP will read this and recognize the whole thing is a generalization at every step, useful but flexible,-but most Ti users see it and then have to stop and check it against their internal logical system for every single generalization stated...Eventually they just seem to hit too many bumps and say fuck it. The harder you push the idea, the harder they push back.

    The INTJs however, live in Te generalities themselves, so the generality isnt going to typically offend them. Additionally, I have heard many INTJs say "If an idea has even the slightest chance of being true, I'll listen to it". The INTJs love ENFPs as we spew ideas endlessly. We are Ni context generation machines. Now the funny part is that you will have a long convo with the INTJ, think you convinced him of your point, then find yourself argueing the same convo later-"dude, I thought we agreed on this???" They agreed to listen and consider your context, but that doesnt mean they agreed in any way with the idea.. LOL.
    Generalizations aint the problem so much I think. If you hit an intp in a field that intrests him, of course generalizations aint liked then. But INTJs dont like them so much as well, when being in a field of intrest. The master of generalizations are imo more dom Ne's.

    A problem with Te users is finiteness. They often speak in finites and make things look like their approach is the only approach. I like to describe a p users perspective in that regards like the vision of a fly, who sees the world from a billion perspectives. Still exactly this sort of thinking is my greatest hinderance in being a boss, I think too long before I make decisions.

    I have draw the conclusions that neither thinking too long nor deciding too quickly is the right way, but a general balance according to the situation should be achieved. And furthermore I think that the best decisions are those which can be easily changed.

    One last bit-Based upon what my ENTP friend has told me, Ti users have some sense of value/importance/merit/respect from others attached to the actual idea, just as we attach our sense of self to our internal Fi values. If you attack the INTPs ideas harshly and bluntly, in a rough tert Te manner, you may be devaluing him as a person . (An INTJ may seem attached to the actual idea, but rather fears being incompetent...thus will defend the extroverted idea vigorously and defensively..)
    I agree
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Understanding feelings(or anything) reguires J function, S and N are irrational functions, they dont make evaluations of any kind. But throught Ni you are able to put in together different judgments, but its not Ni that does the evaluation.
    Reread what I wrote. Se pulls external data. Ni synthesizes. Te concludes through categorisation.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Reread what I wrote. Se pulls external data. Ni synthesizes. Te concludes through categorisation.
    The one thing I dont get about Te categorization is "assumptions". My son is big on this...I worked this morning on explaining coincidence to him. He is dead set on always categorizing things and frequently uses his first guess when doing that instead of digging deeper. Even when I correct him he still believes what he wants and tries to make "BOTH" true, I can usually bend and take extremes into account and accomodate this, but I explain that. At the extreme with me...he jumps to a conclusion, I explain, he jumps to another conclusion and I explain, and it just keeps going...not always about the same thing, but his mind slowly drifts. Sometimes it gets to much other times its easy to work with. Usually when he begins to rely on me to heavily to do his processing and I am doing other things is to much. At those times I push him to process things on his own, but because I am busy at those times I cant sit there and walk him through it. I think he flops between ENFP/ISTJ. these days I dont really see a "specfic" type
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #26
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I've never shared a house with a gf/spouse, but I think the op is so accurate that the best tip for INTPs is:
    Avoid ENFPs!:panic:
    A friend once noted that INTP men will seek out "moms' to sort of take care of the day to day details.
    Hey, that sounds cool. ''Mom'' -> Supportive but not bossy = win
    I once read this article on intpforum that was a bit over the top (I mean, we are fucking adults), but really made sense:
    ''HOW TO KEEP AN INTP MAN HAPPY''

    http://homepage.mac.com/bahlberg/ibl...041/index.html

    The INTPs also seem okay with others tweaking on their emotions to change behavior. Both of these are things you would expect out of an ENFJ.
    It's not like we can detect it as easily as you can.
    Fe to us is like a siren song. Te is like a runaway truck.
    Old INTPs are like really sarcastic, young ISFJs and can be very judgmental.
    Oh, I can see that. I'd make someone feel better about something and then deliver ''Look at the bright side...you're still alive! :''
    The INTPs seem to find ENFPs stupid mostly.
    No kidding, I was already wondering ''Did an ENFP really write this post?''. (Just trolling! But you have a point. )
    One last bit-Based upon what my ENTP friend has told me, Ti users have some sense of value/importance/merit/respect from others attached to the actual idea, just as we attach our sense of self to our internal Fi values. If you attack the INTPs ideas harshly and bluntly, in a rough tert Te manner, you may be devaluing him as a person .
    Uh, I'm not that insecure. But if someone thinks my idea is bad, I want to know the reasoning behind, in a language I can understand. Poor logic won't work. And if I get to the point where the poor logic response is predictable... I won't even bother arguing my points.
    (An INTJ may seem attached to the actual idea, but rather fears being incompetent...thus will defend the extroverted idea vigorously and defensively..)
    Their self esteem is, from a good extent, derived from getting people to acknowledge they're right and actting accordingly. That's Te goal/motivation. INTPs usually have much less patience with people that can't follow our thought process well. Otoh, INTJs pick a lot of lost battles. They don't have the Si filter to remind them it didn't work in the past, so they keep trying, and trying...

    @skylights's post spot on too.
    i suspect part of why mmhmm and jock are so good for each other is she is a less-personally-sensitive ENFP and from my own experience i imagine that smooths a lot of things.
    That was my impression as well.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  7. #27
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    The one thing I dont get about Te categorization is "assumptions". My son is big on this...I worked this morning on explaining coincidence to him. He is dead set on always categorizing things and frequently uses his first guess when doing that instead of digging deeper. Even when I correct him he still believes what he wants and tries to make "BOTH" true, I can usually bend and take extremes into account and accomodate this, but I explain that. At the extreme with me...he jumps to a conclusion, I explain, he jumps to another conclusion and I explain, and it just keeps going...not always about the same thing, but his mind slowly drifts. Sometimes it gets to much other times its easy to work with. Usually when he begins to rely on me to heavily to do his processing and I am doing other things is to much. At those times I push him to process things on his own, but because I am busy at those times I cant sit there and walk him through it. I think he flops between ENFP/ISTJ. these days I dont really see a "specfic" type
    Most important question. How old is your son?

  8. #28
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    ''HOW TO KEEP AN INTP MAN HAPPY''
    by Cafeaulaltinfj

    http://homepage.mac.com/bahlberg/ibl...041/index.html
    HAHAHA THAT IS SO TRUE. the clothing especially. i am going to die laughing. my brother and dad both have "uniforms".

    @skylights's post spot on too.

    That was my impression as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_
    The one thing I dont get about Te categorization is "assumptions". My son is big on this...I worked this morning on explaining coincidence to him. He is dead set on always categorizing things and frequently uses his first guess when doing that instead of digging deeper. Even when I correct him he still believes what he wants and tries to make "BOTH" true, I can usually bend and take extremes into account and accomodate this, but I explain that. At the extreme with me...he jumps to a conclusion, I explain, he jumps to another conclusion and I explain, and it just keeps going...not always about the same thing, but his mind slowly drifts. Sometimes it gets to much other times its easy to work with. Usually when he begins to rely on me to heavily to do his processing and I am doing other things is to much. At those times I push him to process things on his own, but because I am busy at those times I cant sit there and walk him through it. I think he flops between ENFP/ISTJ. these days I dont really see a "specfic" type
    if he is an ENFP, he may very well see both to be true. that's sort of how we see things... all is one, one is all. categorization is fun and can be a bit of a compulsive habit, but remains superficial, being that all categories unite eventually. in Ne-land all things and no things are coincidental...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Most important question. How old is your son?
    I see this with alot of Te people...ranging from my son who is 7 to my ex father in law who is around 70.
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #30
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I mean that you tend to understand things in terms of yourselves and how you feel about them, and that is projected upon others and situations. This is what allows you to connect with people and understand them well at times, but other times it can also lead you astray, especially with NTs because we just don't experience the world like you do. I read a lot of ENFP stuff and I think, "they're really just talking about themselves and what they want to see and they just don't see it."

    Now, INTPs will do this differently but they'll be projecting other things, like their systems and their thoughts. Honestly I think this has to do with Ne, but everybody projects themselves onto the world somehow. I just disproportionately notice this in ENFPs for some reason.]
    This sounds very accurate. I would say the things we are projecting end up being an analytical mask of sorts-based upon our personal histories and our ability to generalize, when we encounter a new situation, we try and map it back to an old situation by applying our analytical mask onto the problem, our worldview. Do you think you notice ENFP projection more as it results in answers that are so very different from your own-thus highly inaccurate if applied to you?

    I notice NFJ projection of this type the most, as often the answers, when applied to enfps, can be totally bizarre, even a bit funny at times, especially with the projection of underlying motive, which can be very incorrect.

    But what I also question with NFJs-what are they "seeing" that I cant see? Are they seeing a part of myself, that I cant quite see correctly? Like trying to look at the back of your head in a mirror?


    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Things really just have to make internal sense. We can easily follow your Ne, but when you're jumping off your "Te frameworks" or whatever the hell that means, we are probably just not happy with how you've interpreted a data point, or "skimmed over" some essential [to us, of course ] condition of that data just because it superficially fits your Ne connection. Again, we will be guilty of something similar but in terms of emotions, we'll extrapolate based on a connection between some emotional data point and an observation without taking into account the meaning of that information. That's the danger of Ne-Je thinking really, there's no introverted element to the reasonings so it's just..."missing" something.
    I do agree that you are correct in that often we are just NeTe-ing our way along. But If the introverted element was Fi, would you be able to sense it?

    This will trigger your BS sensor, but I'd ask you to at least consider it a bit...

    The INFPs often use Fi to judge aesthetics, not morals or values. Moving further, many ENFPs decsribe "groping", "feeling", or reaching out kinesthetically to dervie the best answer to technical or analytical problems. @noigmn specifically described using this in physics, I note it in troubleshooting technical issues with instrumentation. It feels like touching the subject at hand from a very high level-30,000 ft. You close your eyes, look at the problem in your mind, and then touch it with your hand while looking away from it (all in your mind of course). You explore the problem, the complex mesh, the conditions with a very visceral approach-I feel it in my stomach. Eventully you find a lump. The lump is the crux of the problem. It is where all the parts are intertangled. That is the answer to the technial problem.

    This visceral feeling is exactly like facing a values based delimma-the same visceral lump is felt, but there isnt any sadness or emo, just visceral groping, like a blind person touching an object.

    This all sounds like crazy bullshit-except that it works very, very well in troubleshooting scientific instrumentation. I cant tell you why the problem is the problem, in a detailed step by step sense, but I am pretty certain it is the correct problem. I dont think it is NeTe-that seems to happen without the viseral component.

    My point (I really do have one, in spite of the babble), is that I think this is on way we can use Fi. Fi isnt simply a feelings based judgement for values, but an analytical tool that can be applied to other items. I suspect it fails if applied to pure logic, Ti is far more applicable, but using Fi this way works pretty well on insanely sloppy problems.

    Now assuming any of the above babble could be true, would an NeTe solution or a vsiceral NeFiTe solution look the same from your perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Okay, I started thinking later on that this is more addressed to ENFPs than ITPs but then I couldn't really figure out why it was in the NT rationale. ]
    Oh, I figured if the enfp wanted to learn about their intp, they'd look in the NT forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    If the INTP is worth anything at all, he'll see your idea and how it can possibly be true and apply to the world, he will just bring your attention back to some logistics that could prove an obstacle and consider them with you. I think we enjoy your excitability and optimism and typically run with you on these things to provoke it. ]
    Can you clarify logistics? I always think of logistics as very Te sorts of things involving, well, logistics, , and I figured Ti objections might be more purely to the logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    As long as you're open to our input [meaning, as long as you don't mind getting shot down sometimes] it's fine. If anything, the INTP tendency to explain [and explain, and explain, and explain...] rather than "tell" means we tend to illuminate, and satisfy your curiosity with our knowledge and thoughts rather than tell you "no" and leaving it at that. The INTP gets to share his thoughts to a willing participant and the ENFP learns something new. Everybody wins. ]
    Excellent. I could also see how the enfp, who often has a value stake in an offerred idea, could need to realize that and detach the value stake, before entering the convo as they would need to be open to changing the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I do think it's obvious, but you're right, I have no idea why forum goers might come to that conclusion.
    Why does everyone get angsty about that thread? (A genuine question, not sarcasm-I dont understand and would like input). I recognize the ENTJs raised a legit point about enfp manipulation, ackowledged, but the thread really seems to bother people who are not INTJs or ENFPs and they constantly step in and snipe at it. I find it to be a concentrated source of INTJs (most of whom I like ) who can help me with questions about my 4yo INTJ or just play with ideas about typology in a weird sub-space of sorts. But I admit being ignorant of why the thread bugs people so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    @Orobas

    I agree with you on a lot of those points.

    Neither these, nor your previous posts sound ENFP. They sound kind of INFJ with a strong T.

    I am neither labeling, nor questioning your type. I am curious as to why you think this is. Or perhaps I am mistaken.

    On the other hand just to make it clear (pls don't be offended. EDIT: actually, do you get offended when somebody says/warns of something you know? Am I being too stereotypical as per Kersey and feeling uneasy stating the obvious as an NT or am I reading too much type theory into normal human relations?) - you realize tests give up to 30% error, especially when taken on the job. A lot of people scoring INTP are ENTP with a rotten Fe or an overblown pride of the Father Ti. I've seen three of those, me included.
    .
    Interesting points regarding Te, Istbkleta. I am a bit limited on time and want to think upon them more fully before replying.

    ^^see I am an enfp, I left you a , LOL.

    I have been called an ESTJ, ENTP, and was even described by a coworker on Friday as being an ISTJ. When I take formal MBTI tests:

    MBTI simple form-ENTP
    MBTI Step II-INTP
    MBTI paper form-INFP
    MMTI-c-(for children) ENFP

    I use a lot of Ne, it appears.

    I am a ennea type 4w5 but I am an sp/sx instinctual variant. This means I do feel very strongly at times, but almost always contain it behind a wall of (sloppy ) logic if possible. My emotions are my weak spot. My mother was an extremely emotionally manipulative enfp, thus I learned to value logical analysis over simple emotions whenever possible to prevent being hurt and protect myself from her games-an Fi valuation of Te.

    The 4w5 gives an intense desire to dig through my own crap though and I cant tolerate dishonesty in myself. I have to understand the truth above all else-thus this need comes out when I interact with NTP friends, in that while I may want to make snap defensive Fi value judgements, I recognize they are incomplete and flawed, not truth, thus seek more data to appreciate the very alien perspective of their worldview-then respect it as having a right to exist.

    (You do seem very INTP to me.)

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    The one thing I dont get about Te categorization is "assumptions". My son is big on this...I worked this morning on explaining coincidence to him. He is dead set on always categorizing things and frequently uses his first guess when doing that instead of digging deeper. Even when I correct him he still believes what he wants and tries to make "BOTH" true, I can usually bend and take extremes into account and accomodate this, but I explain that. At the extreme with me...he jumps to a conclusion, I explain, he jumps to another conclusion and I explain, and it just keeps going...not always about the same thing, but his mind slowly drifts. Sometimes it gets to much other times its easy to work with. Usually when he begins to rely on me to heavily to do his processing and I am doing other things is to much. At those times I push him to process things on his own, but because I am busy at those times I cant sit there and walk him through it. I think he flops between ENFP/ISTJ. these days I dont really see a "specfic" type
    Poki-this sounds a bit Ni to me at first glance? The ability to beleive two things at once, in spite of data? My little intj is convinced all red cars are the fastest, because ummlau's red car if faster than my black car. it is VERY odd to see how he analyzes with Te, but really fascinating.

    What do you mean by do his processing for him?

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    Personally enjoyable, like you said...the correct language....but you hjave to remember soothing...the fakeness has nothing to do with the tone. Not saying ENFPs are always fake, but IxTPs prefer real emotions..
    @jock the motie and @INTP-I think this is the emo manipulation part I was talking about.

    Poki can you eleborate on "The fakeness has nothing to do with the tone"?

    I can very rarely display emotion unless I really feel it-thus to try and be soothing, even if I didnt feel soothing, would be fake and avoided at all costs. However very often, with my ISTP ex-when I need to request his help is when I am the most annoyed, frustrated or upset by what I view (tert Te fail ) as him perhaps not being accountable. Learning i needed to speak in a soothing tone at this point was amazingly valuable, as the sharp Te "harpy" voice seems very jarring to him. Bending my own mind around why it was okay to speak soothingly, when i felt anything but soothing, was essential though. Still a work in progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by _Poki_ View Post
    We do have value because its our belief system, but imposing that value onto you we dont do...if stressed you may pick up that it bothers us and that bothers you. But that is not us imposing it, but you feeling judged. With ISTPs this is more about actions, not ideas...INTPS may be different.
    I think this captures the biggest IXTP diff. I almost never argued or fought with my ISTP ex, even over the course of ten years. We did not share ideas, though-he thought I was very smart, but thought about "crazy stuff". I was extremely careful to give his free range on actions and his passion for adventure. Often I was home alone, but this wasnt a big deal.

    With an INTP, I think I''d have to learn to tone down the knee-jerk Te on the ide front, as we are both playing in the same space-abstract idea land.

    INTPs, I noted my ISTP worked to keep his actions very seperate from me-like he needed a partition. Do you note this about your ideas?

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