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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm not following as to what implications you think this has. Sweetness and nurturing is sweetness and nurturing. Are you saying the INTP finds it fake?.
    no-mistaken identity, the two feel similar? In a generalized way, each type seeks something, some set of external behaviors they find attractive. Assuming some of the Jungian concepts of seeking one's shadow are true-Thinkers seek feelers. Thus an ENFJ might be a very natural match to the core personality of an intp, but an enfp can exhibit those some types of characteristics at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I am not very old, so I haven't experienced this thus far. To be honest, I find the reverse happening. INTP teens and early 20s can be characterized by a lot of self certitude and arrogance, simply because they have grown to only place their trust on their own minds to tell them what is true and they haven't yet learned how to integrate Ne with Ti enough to be a bit more open. IMO if someone acts like an ISJ later in life, they've probably just been ISJs all along. People don't start embodying their tertiary and inferiors, they tend to just stop being consumed by them, for most part.
    I absolutely disgree on your point regarding tert/inf expression as people age. It is an immature expression of those functions, unconscious, sloppy, ill-refined, damaging, shadow and erruptive as it emerges, but very present and can create a great deal of issues as they change. Jung noted this as seeing a once young, sweet women morph into the household provider during middle age, while her husband moved from being assertive to being passive. On mbti step II you can actually see the inferior functions bleeding through-in the Ni doms, you see heavy S scores. On the T-F axis, this can play such a large role that they created several designations to capture the effect "rational feelers" and "empathic thinkers" to describe sub-facets that are skewed.

    In giving MBTI step IIs to people, I had to make a little powerpoint slide that showed the different functions they had and how they might change over a lifetime depending upon life experiences-then they would accept their MBTI results. Before that the test results and their feelings of themselves were too conflicting on the diacohtomies, and they were very frustrated by what they saw in the results.

    In older couples, you see these issues come to the surface as each changes-thus to ignore dynamic changes in personality over a lifetime, would be to create an incomplete theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    INTPs can find ENFPs stupid, but IME not for the reasons you describe. It's mostly when they see them projecting all over everything and they're not aware they're doing it. What you said here doesn't make too much sense. INTPs have less issues with Te than they have with Fi. If you're saying INTPs viscerally reject anything that's poorly thought out, well no shit. Any NT is like this. :
    Can you clarify what you mean by the term
    projecting"? I think I understand what you are getting at, but I havent seen anybody use projection this exact way-I may be misunderstanding.

    What is poorly thought out? How many data points are needed before something is defined enough for you to feel comfortable with the idea? What level of proof and rigor?

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    It also seems like you're saying the INTP should just roll with it because obviously the ENFP's dom-tert use should be catered to, while INTP dom-tert use is always negative and rains on your parade.
    Actually the polar opposite. The original OP was written to an ENFP-basicaly highlighting the breaks points assuming she could change her style of interaction to not impinge upon the INTPs. It assumed the INTP could not or would not change, and that if she wanted the marriage to continue, she needed to understand why some of her natural mannerisms were driving him nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Yeah...no. Generalizations ARE useful. Very useful. INTPs may not particularly be happy with how they're applied by someone using them for Dom-tert psychological defense and justification. Recall I mentioned Ti doms not having much of an issue with pure Te as they do with something like Fi. INTPs are intuitive thinkers; ENFPs are not. If INTPs see sloppy intuitive thinking, they're naturally going to disregard it or not take it seriously:
    This makes sense-but can you see how annoying that might be? Mostly we have ideas that we think help people, so to get blown off, without consideration, can be frustrating.

    In return-how long could you take living with someone who constantly shared sloppy intuitive thinker before you went bonkers? What is your limit?

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    It'd be like if an INTP had sloppy emotional reasoning but maintained it's rock solid over yours simply because. Ridiculous, right? :
    I see this happen all the time. Endlessly. It seems really rude to point it out, but if you do, they stick rock solid to it.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    A lot of this seems like you're falling into the odd ENFP trap of glorifying your tertiary, which nobody else does aside from maybe ENTJs patting themselves on the back in their sociopathic Te-Se bulldozer mode. This ties in to an ENFP's particular brand of a lack of self-awareness, as nobody thinks this is cute and/or admirable aside from yourselves. :
    LOL, we "think" about our tert Te, thus we talk and discuss it and dump ideas everywhere. It isnt glorification, more picking at a scab. What NTPs do on the forum is actually use their tert and inf Fe-same exact thing. Many NTPs on the forum are exceptionaly emotive and interested indiscussing relationships and how people "should" interact. This isnt bad or good or anything-just what folks do.

    Manyother good points-must skip to the end and go to work though.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I don't think type is a great way to predict compatibility. This is so individual it's largely meaningless to use type aside from evaluating likelihoods. It IS a good way to describe miscommunication and think about how to present arguments and information to your partner in a way that they can use it. But a fundamental disagreement will not always be solved by type as it describes why, not what. If there are some differences that are higher level in nature, like what one wants out of life, of a partner, out of family, what they want their role to be, no type wizardry is going to overcome those things. Type doesn't describe an entirety of a person, and if you try to use it like that, you're just going to be disappointed.

    Maybe some thoughts on relationship later.
    Isnt this obvious? Type seems to be able to decsribe the way miscommunication might occur between two types, but not the details and specifications of the issues. Interesting book which describes Miscommunication between types: Intro to Type and Communication

    Sometimes I feel like you guys assume that because I present a type based model, you think that I assume it is the final defining truth of an interaction. That'd be totally ridiculous. Not sure where that comes from.

  2. #12
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    I dont have time to read the entire post from oro right above this one, but i think that with the right person we can learn to utilize our tert/inf in a positive manner. But that requires outside help to differentiate. Some types will make it even worse, others will let it be, and yet another type may highlight the positive and in a way steer the outcome and the way a person works and grows will adapt to using it in a better manner.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #13
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    no-mistaken identity, the two feel similar? In a generalized way, each type seeks something, some set of external behaviors they find attractive. Assuming some of the Jungian concepts of seeking one's shadow are true-Thinkers seek feelers. Thus an ENFJ might be a very natural match to the core personality of an intp, but an enfp can exhibit those some types of characteristics at times.
    Okay, but I'd still say the distinction is of negligible concern. If anything, this works in your favor as ITPs tend to be Fe antagonistic and they might find the ENFP...floweryness a more genuine expression of self rather than a face that gets put on whenever it's appropriate.



    I absolutely disgree on your point regarding tert/inf expression as people age. It is an immature expression of those functions, unconscious, sloppy, ill-refined, damaging, shadow and erruptive as it emerges, but very present and can create a great deal of issues as they change. Jung noted this as seeing a once young, sweet women morph into the household provider during middle age, while her husband moved from being assertive to being passive. On mbti step II you can actually see the inferior functions bleeding through-in the Ni doms, you see heavy S scores. On the T-F axis, this can play such a large role that they created several designations to capture the effect "rational feelers" and "empathic thinkers" to describe sub-facets that are skewed.

    In giving MBTI step IIs to people, I had to make a little powerpoint slide that showed the different functions they had and how they might change over a lifetime depending upon life experiences-then they would accept their MBTI results. Before that the test results and their feelings of themselves were too conflicting on the diacohtomies, and they were very frustrated by what they saw in the results.

    In older couples, you see these issues come to the surface as each changes-thus to ignore dynamic changes in personality over a lifetime, would be to create an incomplete theory.
    Okay, now that you've expanded here I have a better understanding of what you meant, and I agree with you. I was under the impression you thought the types basically switched, which I'd say is ridiculous. But yes, the "mid-life" crisis people tend to get usually has to do with their inferior development, and it can get messy, since like @uumlau said and I agree with, people can essentially get through 90-95% of life only using their Dom-Aux functions and the other 10% or so falls by the wayside and catches up later.



    Can you clarify what you mean by the term
    projecting"? I think I understand what you are getting at, but I havent seen anybody use projection this exact way-I may be misunderstanding.
    I mean that you tend to understand things in terms of yourselves and how you feel about them, and that is projected upon others and situations. This is what allows you to connect with people and understand them well at times, but other times it can also lead you astray, especially with NTs because we just don't experience the world like you do. I read a lot of ENFP stuff and I think, "they're really just talking about themselves and what they want to see and they just don't see it."

    Now, INTPs will do this differently but they'll be projecting other things, like their systems and their thoughts. Honestly I think this has to do with Ne, but everybody projects themselves onto the world somehow. I just disproportionately notice this in ENFPs for some reason.

    What is poorly thought out? How many data points are needed before something is defined enough for you to feel comfortable with the idea? What level of proof and rigor?
    Things really just have to make internal sense. We can easily follow your Ne, but when you're jumping off your "Te frameworks" or whatever the hell that means, we are probably just not happy with how you've interpreted a data point, or "skimmed over" some essential [to us, of course ] condition of that data just because it superficially fits your Ne connection. Again, we will be guilty of something similar but in terms of emotions, we'll extrapolate based on a connection between some emotional data point and an observation without taking into account the meaning of that information. That's the danger of Ne-Je thinking really, there's no introverted element to the reasonings so it's just..."missing" something.
    Actually the polar opposite. The original OP was written to an ENFP-basicaly highlighting the breaks points assuming she could change her style of interaction to not impinge upon the INTPs. It assumed the INTP could not or would not change, and that if she wanted the marriage to continue, she needed to understand why some of her natural mannerisms were driving him nuts.
    Okay, I started thinking later on that this is more addressed to ENFPs than ITPs but then I couldn't really figure out why it was in the NT rationale.



    This makes sense-but can you see how annoying that might be? Mostly we have ideas that we think help people, so to get blown off, without consideration, can be frustrating.
    If the INTP is worth anything at all, he'll see your idea and how it can possibly be true and apply to the world, he will just bring your attention back to some logistics that could prove an obstacle and consider them with you. I think we enjoy your excitability and optimism and typically run with you on these things to provoke it.

    In return-how long could you take living with someone who constantly shared sloppy intuitive thinker before you went bonkers? What is your limit?
    As long as you're open to our input [meaning, as long as you don't mind getting shot down sometimes] it's fine. If anything, the INTP tendency to explain [and explain, and explain, and explain...] rather than "tell" means we tend to illuminate, and satisfy your curiosity with our knowledge and thoughts rather than tell you "no" and leaving it at that. The INTP gets to share his thoughts to a willing participant and the ENFP learns something new. Everybody wins.

    .

    I see this happen all the time. Endlessly. It seems really rude to point it out, but if you do, they stick rock solid to it.
    Right. It's stupid. It comes down to people being able to admit they're wrong and trusting one another's input.


    Isnt this obvious?
    ....
    That'd be totally ridiculous. Not sure where that comes from.
    I do think it's obvious, but you're right, I have no idea why forum goers might come to that conclusion.



  4. #14
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I mean that you tend to understand things in terms of yourselves and how you feel about them, and that is projected upon others and situations. This is what allows you to connect with people and understand them well at times, but other times it can also lead you astray, especially with NTs because we just don't experience the world like you do. I read a lot of ENFP stuff and I think, "they're really just talking about themselves and what they want to see and they just don't see it."

    Now, INTPs will do this differently but they'll be projecting other things, like their systems and their thoughts. Honestly I think this has to do with Ne, but everybody projects themselves onto the world somehow. I just disproportionately notice this in ENFPs for some reason.
    Yes, INTPs also project, but differently. It isn't the projecting that is a problem, but rather not accounting for it when translating from one framework to another. It isn't Ne that is doing the projecting, it's just being human. The typology merely helps put a finger on how the projecting will happen. For INTPs, the projecting appears to be the belief that there is a single set of truths, that every word has a precise meaning, and that other people are (or ought to be) similarly careful with how ideas are expressed. This INTP projection directly collides with the ENFP version of sharing truth, where it's all sorta kinda hand-wavy maybethismaybethatbutIbetthereissomethingtoit. The ENFP style eventually settles down to particular certainties, but what most people will see is the seemingly crazy ideas being shared. (Because it's the new ideas that are interesting. The certainties are simply launch points for exploring more new and crazy ideas.)

    INTJs can occasionally bridge the gap, sort of, because we can adopt the INTP "nitpickiness" that we perceive and communicate on that very technical level for a time, and yet sit back with an ENFP and just absorb the ideas being flung around wildly and waiting until we see which ones stick.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #15
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    @Orobas

    I agree with you on a lot of those points.

    Neither these, nor your previous posts sound ENFP. They sound kind of INFJ with a strong T.

    I am neither labeling, nor questioning your type. I am curious as to why you think this is. Or perhaps I am mistaken.

    On the other hand just to make it clear (pls don't be offended. EDIT: actually, do you get offended when somebody says/warns of something you know? Am I being too stereotypical as per Kersey and feeling uneasy stating the obvious as an NT or am I reading too much type theory into normal human relations?) - you realize tests give up to 30% error, especially when taken on the job. A lot of people scoring INTP are ENTP with a rotten Fe or an overblown pride of the Father Ti. I've seen three of those, me included.


    To me Te is not about generalizations but about being blind, unoriginal and really pushing that unoriginality onto others. There is a strong emotional reactions when somebody dares say what I have the right to think and what not. Emotions are a matter of interpretation but I can understand why you'd "shiver" there.
    The less mature the Te, the more brutish and fake it seems to me.

    It's a basic human right to have own opinion and to share it freely. You cannot begin to imagine how much I hate and how aggressive I feel on the inside when a Fi ("offended" by opinion) uses immature Te to silence me or somebody else. It feels like an attack to the very core of what a human is - freedom of thought. For reference on this - Bill Maher (ENTP).
    I've noticed we on the other hand use immature Fe to force feed this freedom of expression onto others regardless of the pain it might cause.
    Making an ENFP-ENTP match even more difficult that the INTP one.

  6. #16
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, INTPs also project, but differently. It isn't the projecting that is a problem, but rather not accounting for it when translating from one framework to another. It isn't Ne that is doing the projecting, it's just being human. The typology merely helps put a finger on how the projecting will happen. For INTPs, the projecting appears to be the belief that there is a single set of truths, that every word has a precise meaning, and that other people are (or ought to be) similarly careful with how ideas are expressed. This INTP projection directly collides with the ENFP version of sharing truth, where it's all sorta kinda hand-wavy maybethismaybethatbutIbetthereissomethingtoit. The ENFP style eventually settles down to particular certainties, but what most people will see is the seemingly crazy ideas being shared. (Because it's the new ideas that are interesting. The certainties are simply launch points for exploring more new and crazy ideas.)
    The bolded is definitely correct and where the whole necessity of typological self-awareness comes in to play. I'd say that the INTP belief is more in meanings than believing in absolute truths; like you say, meanings are important to Ti doms because of how one facet of an idea is inextricably tied to about a million others, however if they're open enough they should be able to be agnostic enough about ideas as long as they internally make sense. I notice this with @mmhmm and I, she'll be telling me her thoughts and I'm simultaneously translating the hand wavyness yet foregoing judgment until she takes a breath, which is rare, because I'm able to, as you say, sit back and absorb while waiting for something to stick and I find the thread of thought she's traveling along. The shared Ne really, really helps, because it's easy to see the same things.

    For ENFPs, I'd just say they seem to make a lot of emotional assumptions and tend to inject a lot of what they want to see in their observations. But as an INT, that's precisely what I'd say, isn't it?



  7. #17
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    One little thing between Ti dom vs Fi dom(and aux to some extend, dunno how this plays in TJs, propably the same, but is just less obvious, since they dont think as much what others feel in general and only do so with people with great importance to them) is that Fi thinks what others feel, meaning they use their Te to figure out what others are feeling. Ti on the other hand feels what others think.

    I could see this causing alot of misunderstandings if the two people arent aware of this difference.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yes, INTPs also project, but differently. It isn't the projecting that is a problem, but rather not accounting for it when translating from one framework to another. It isn't Ne that is doing the projecting, it's just being human. The typology merely helps put a finger on how the projecting will happen. For INTPs, the projecting appears to be the belief that there is a single set of truths, that every word has a precise meaning, and that other people are (or ought to be) similarly careful with how ideas are expressed. This INTP projection directly collides with the ENFP version of sharing truth, where it's all sorta kinda hand-wavy maybethismaybethatbutIbetthereissomethingtoit. The ENFP style eventually settles down to particular certainties, but what most people will see is the seemingly crazy ideas being shared. (Because it's the new ideas that are interesting. The certainties are simply launch points for exploring more new and crazy ideas.)

    INTJs can occasionally bridge the gap, sort of, because we can adopt the INTP "nitpickiness" that we perceive and communicate on that very technical level for a time, and yet sit back with an ENFP and just absorb the ideas being flung around wildly and waiting until we see which ones stick.
    Ok, i lived with an intj for 18 years. They care more about nitpicking then other IP types. IP may focus on small detail, but we lack the judgement of factually being nitpicky. Most recent INTJ sayign...it is her problem because i will make it her problem....INTP saying...your just f'in stupid...sadly there is no real judgement behind that...it actually comes down to...i feel bad for u.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I kinda suck at the Ti item by item reply
    Most INTPs suck at this as well. We hate to get involved in doing it.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    One little thing between Ti dom vs Fi dom(and aux to some extend, dunno how this plays in TJs, propably the same, but is just less obvious, since they dont think as much what others feel in general and only do so with people with great importance to them) is that Fi thinks what others feel, meaning they use their Te to figure out what others are feeling. Ti on the other hand feels what others think.

    I could see this causing alot of misunderstandings if the two people arent aware of this difference.
    As a eNTJ, Se/Ni play a bigger role in trying to gauge the feelings of others. I watch for signs and vibes, then internally synthesize what those signs/vibes mean. Te slots them into general categories like danger/need to ask/someone's angry/etc. and extroverts my action/reaction.

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