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[INTJ] Faux INTJ?

Engineer

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This whole para screams No No not INTJ.
Ps -
INTJs are extremely tactful. Their poker faces get them most things they want.
ENTJs are not. They are disgustingly tactless.

But this doesn't indicate you are INTJ. The rest of your self descriptions screams that you are not an INTJ.

A little INTJ trade secret... That self-confidence is just as much a part of our poker face as our tact is. I project confidence because it inspires others to fall in behind what I'm doing. I had terrible self confidence personally for awhile, but letting everyone know that you don't believe in yourself is a sure way to get yourself kicked in the pants by someone else's decision. And soon enough that faux confidence becomes real confidence, because you see how well faking it becomes. It could be that our new friend here is just not far enough along that particular road to be completely assertive as other INTJs. As I said earlier, individuals are individuals.
 

highlander

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[*]Academics, I'm told INTJs tend to excel and thrive in such an environment, I do not. I hate school of all types, and I do poorly in such environment (though my grades are ok). I have a slight loathing of people who make Academics their life.
I have read different things on this. They are the underachievers or the overachievers. I'm not sure I put so much stock in any of it.

[*]Intellectual hobbies/strength. INTJs seem to be interested in the maths and sciences. I personally detest the two, and while I had fairly good grades in college, I am not that bright. Its one of the reasons I vist INTJ forums rarely, they talk over my head.
I was never very interested in math or science. I was pretty good at math though.

[*]Tact and Diplomacy. Viewing some of these forums and listening to others talk about them, INTJs seem to be lacking in these departments. There are times at work when a friend of mine (an ENTJ) will say things to customers and I give a slight shudder, thinking that that could have been more tactful and with a different tone. I'm no Jimmy Carter, but I am careful to adopt proper tones and speaking voice when dealing with people, to put them at ease. Unless I'm very tired, then I become cold in manner because I simply don't care anymore and I've had my fill.
I am not surprised that an ENTJ would be lacking in tact. I have a theory which I will get to in a minute on your interaction style.

[*]Confidence and decisiveness, I'm told INTJs have this in abundance. I have zero confidence the majority of the time. I question everything I do, and when I begin to try and judge myself on something, I never trust my own self-view. Thats why when it comes to anything that allows me to personalize or give input on my personality I freeze up. I'll take days of indecision over the stupidest things, simply because it involves me choosing something based on my personal preference.
This is where my theory comes in. I think you could be an Enneagram 6 which is not unusual for an INTJ. The not trusting of self-view is classic Enneagram 6. INTJs confidence tends to be of a very specific nature related to things that they know. Also, the focus on people and relationships seems also characteristic of Enneagram 6.

[*]Constructiveness, the internet tells me INTJs are constructive and always working on something or another. I am a lazy. I'm not proud of it, but I always rationalize one way or the other not to do something. Zero projects at this moment, and most of the last couple of year.
Have you always been lazy? Maybe you are depressed or something. I can be very lazy. I can also be very hard working. It depends. What are you lazy about doing?

[*]Religion. Most INTJs don't believe in God. I do. Not an expert apologist, but I try to read every apologetic article I can. So far I've read some pretty well thought out arguments. Granted this last item isn't a personality trait per say, but atheism seems a common theme among INTJs.
I have always believed in God.
 

Owfin

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Hmm, I wonder... if I had typed myself as an INTJ, how quickly would you guys have found me out?
 

highlander

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Hmm, I wonder... if I had typed myself as an INTJ, how quickly would you guys have found me out?

I'm not very good at typing people, so probably never.
 

Coriolis

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Religion. Most INTJs don't believe in God. I do. Not an expert apologist, but I try to read every apologetic article I can. So far I've read some pretty well thought out arguments. Granted this last item isn't a personality trait per say, but atheism seems a common theme among INTJs.

Again, I understand that not every INTJ is going to be the exact same. But I am curious of other people's take on these differences, and if maybe all these tests I've been taking have been wrong about me.
I won't speculate on your actual type - I hardly know you, and am not good at typing others to begin with. I can say, however, that your religion comment is actually consistent with being INTJ. A majority of INTJs may indeed be atheists, or at least agnostics, but many do believe in deity, including myself. It is less what we believe than why and what we do about it. Reading apologetics and appreciating well-thought-out arguments is not what most believers do. They "feel the spirit", follow the guidance of some church or leader, or just never bother to question what they were brought up to believe. We question. We read, think, analyze, and expect some level of rationality and consistency, even when it comes to spiritual matters.

As for finding your real type, I recommend reading type descriptions of likely types from several sources. When I did this, the INTJ descriptions always stood out like sore thumbs, so much more did I identify with them over any other.
 

Frostshade

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I have read different things on this. They are the underachievers or the overachievers. I'm not sure I put so much stock in any of it.

Its possible that most schools are just horrible at their jobs. This is a possibility I'm always willing to consider. During school I always found what ever book I was reading a much better use of my time than what ever it was they were yapping about.

I was never very interested in math or science. I was pretty good at math though.

Horrible at both. I have to count quietly out loud sometimes. (what an odd phrase) Counting money makes me nervous. When I roll in D&D I verbally have to work out the mathematics both so I can comprehend it as I go, and to allow other to point out my error. Had a good laugh one night when in mid-count I started going the other way.
This is where my theory comes in. I think you could be an Enneagram 6 which is not unusual for an INTJ. The not trusting of self-view is classic Enneagram 6. INTJs confidence tends to be of a very specific nature related to things that they know. Also, the focus on people and relationships seems also characteristic of Enneagram 6.

Took the Enneagram a long time ago, can't quite remember the result, but looking at the type six. Wow, that does sound a lot like me. I constantly do small things to try and get input from other people (and sometimes I post on forum boards : ] ) Another test once told me that what I desire most in life is security. What few people I feel somewhat....attached too I do feel a sense of loyalty to. However I try never to get 100% personable. I love it, and admire it in other when they can do things on their own.

EDIT: Small Enneagram test I just took pegged me as a 4. *Also* sounds accurate, in fact it just barely beat out type 6.

Have you always been lazy? Maybe you are depressed or something. I can be very lazy. I can also be very hard working. It depends. What are you lazy about doing?
To an extent. Sometimes I have bouts of incredible productivity. Feel really good afterwards. I work fairly well while at my job. I have been diagnosed with mild depression when I was in high school. Took some medication. Got off medication. After a period talked to my mother about seeing a doctor again. She did not want to deal with it, or at least that was the general impression I got. It should be noted that medication was the immediate response to most of my behavioral/emotional problems through out my schooling. Still have bad days sometimes.
I have always believed in God.
So do I. Wish I had the knowledge to argue it better. I am no C.S. Lewis. But I like listening to him.
 

Frostshade

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Sir, I am just like you in almost all of those respects. And I am for sure an INTJ. I feel like a lot of what you're thinking of INTJs is a stereotype... remember that typology is semi-accurate, but it can't ever project hugely broad truths about all individuals beneath a particular type. Individuals are individuals, after all.

Its nice to hear a contrary view. Similar INTJs, I like using debate to give ideas the stress test. I can tell you that there are traits I have that seem to correspond to INTJs; According to others I seem to have that bearing and aura of Grim (that feeling intjs tend to give others); I will test an idea by playing devil's advocate, I am private and a perfectionist at times. It should be noted that looking at the INTP, I notice alot of similarities with them as well.....for good or ill.
 

Daemon Corax

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Oh, another aspect of your first post that probably influenced us, as simple users who do not know you personally and can only try to type you based on your mere statements, is the fact that you drew attention to the differences between yourself and the INTJ stereotype. Only later did we/I find out that you are highly productive at times or that you are a perfectionist. By leaving out your similarities with INTJs, you made us/me minimize the possibility of you simply being a "weaker" INTJ, while stereotypes fit "bold" INTJs better.

P.S: I would (and do) also neglect school subjects in favour of whatever catches my interest and seems more intellectually provoking.
 

luismas

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Took the Enneagram a long time ago, can't quite remember the result, but looking at the type six. Wow, that does sound a lot like me. I constantly do small things to try and get input from other people (and sometimes I post on forum boards : ] ) Another test once told me that what I desire most in life is security. What few people I feel somewhat....attached too I do feel a sense of loyalty to. However I try never to get 100% personable. I love it, and admire it in other when they can do things on their own.

EDIT: Small Enneagram test I just took pegged me as a 4. *Also* sounds accurate, in fact it just barely beat out type 6.

Frostshade,

You are certain of being an introvert. That is an I. You relate to type 6 and 4. Let's see : 6s are most likely Fs and Ps. 4s are most likely INFs. So the most likely MBTI type would be INFP (perhaps with shades of INTP). Fi/Ti may explain your ambivalence when making choices. Ne surely explains your drive towards fantasy, exploring, possibilities, reading, games. Why not take a look at those profiles? INFP is my hunch, but I may be wrong, I am not authority. :)
 

Frostshade

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Oh, another aspect of your first post that probably influenced us, as simple users who do not know you personally and can only try to type you based on your mere statements, is the fact that you drew attention to the differences between yourself and the INTJ stereotype. Only later did we/I find out that you are highly productive at times or that you are a perfectionist. By leaving out your similarities with INTJs, you made us/me minimize the possibility of you simply being a "weaker" INTJ, while stereotypes fit "bold" INTJs better.

P.S: I would (and do) also neglect school subjects in favour of whatever catches my interest and seems more intellectually provoking.

That is a really good point. Ok let me list some similarities, some reasons why I stuck with INTJ so long

  • I can be very private, I don't like to give away 100% of myself to anyone.
  • While I can be somewhat amiable towards strangers (customers) when I'm very tired or stressed I revert to a cold, hard manner. Shutting down as much emotion as possible. I can't keep the social thing up for more than eight hours.
  • In those few instances where I was given leadership. I've surprised myself with how well I did. Though I don't think those situations were incredibly testing as far as my leadership skills.
  • I love strategy games and strategic thinking. Though I believe I'm not very good at either one.
  • I can take criticism, as long as it seems to be rational.
  • I like to think I'm responsible and independent.
  • Personal achievement (though I have little) and conquest mean a lot to me.
    • I seem to have the INTJ aura (or glare as some call it) not really compelling evidence, but its the last thing I can think of this early in the morning.

    There is also the tendency towards perfectionism, as well as the strange outbursts of productivity.
    I'm not trying to get you all to type me 100%, I'm just wanting views and perceptions. Other angles.
 

Frostshade

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Frostshade,

You are certain of being an introvert. That is an I. You relate to type 6 and 4. Let's see : 6s are most likely Fs and Ps. 4s are most likely INFs. So the most likely MBTI type would be INFP (perhaps with shades of INTP). Fi/Ti may explain your ambivalence when making choices. Ne surely explains your drive towards fantasy, exploring, possibilities, reading, games. Why not take a look at those profiles? INFP is my hunch, but I may be wrong, I am not authority. :)
Uhhhhh hahaha. I don't know. I'll read more about it, but looking at a quick summary of them, they seem to be way more friendly inside than I am.
A customer throws money on the counter and doesn't look at me. My first thoughts:"Pick it up and hand it to me. Toss it to me like a dog again and I'll break your little ****ing hand."
Waiting upon giggly teenage girls. First thoughts "I don't have any general hatred towards you, but I wonder if I suddenly socked you one in the face and we both felt the breaking of wet cartilage under my fist. Would you take something serious for once in your life? Would you still find everything funny?

I don't actually say or *do* these things. Sometimes though I'm taken aback that I think them at all however. Bottom line. I'm just not a people person. I can fake it for a while, but no. I'm too cold and easily frustrated by the human race.
 

Owfin

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6s are most likely Fs and Ps.

Most ISTJs are either type one or type 6s, and they are certainly not Fs or Ps. (Except me, the quasi ENFP)
 

highlander

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EDIT: Small Enneagram test I just took pegged me as a 4. *Also* sounds accurate, in fact it just barely beat out type 6.

INTJ or INTP 4 is not very common at all. My test results always came up as 8, which was wrong, so I'd be careful with the tests.
 

luismas

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Most ISTJs are either type one or type 6s, and they are certainly not Fs or Ps. (Except me, the quasi ENFP)

You would be right, ISTJs are included because 6s are not given to abstract theorizing. But 6s are usually divided between independence and togetherness, which probably correlates to Introversion-Feeling (not to say that all 6s have preference for F). They are more likely to be Ps due to the ambivalence.
 

luismas

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I don't actually say or *do* these things. Sometimes though I'm taken aback that I think them at all however. Bottom line. I'm just not a people person. I can fake it for a while, but no. I'm too cold and easily frustrated by the human race.

Type 4 came out as your fundamental type, and they are very usually INFPs and INFJs. Let us be reminded that the preference for F is not always about personal warmth, friendliness, humanity and what not, but rather the weighting of personal values. Some INFs can prove to be quite misanthropic. You say that you are taken aback by those thoughts ; perhaps the repressed functions in those types (Te or Se) in action? I still think you are an IN_P, may be with a T, although the enneagram does not bear that out. Any progress?
 

Frostshade

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Type 4 came out as your fundamental type, and they are very usually INFPs and INFJs. Let us be reminded that the preference for F is not always about personal warmth, friendliness, humanity and what not, but rather the weighting of personal values. Some INFs can prove to be quite misanthropic. You say that you are taken aback by those thoughts ; perhaps the repressed functions in those types (Te or Se) in action? I still think you are an IN_P, may be with a T, although the enneagram does not bear that out. Any progress?

Hmm, I'm looking at INFP and I'm sorry but there are a couple of things that just clash with their description and me. Healers are known to follow their feelings. While I have strong feelings from time to time, for the longest time I have taken the view that following your heart is idiotic, because feelings will lie to you. Sometimes they are appropriate, but many times they will lead you into trouble. Experience with depression is living proof of this.

If I'm reading this right, INFPs tend to seek out harmony, so all will be at peace together. I like harmony as well, but as horrible as it is, i like it not because I believe everyone should be at peace, but because it is order. Don't misunderstand me, I'm no anal retentive I have a casual sense of order. Flexible. However most of my frustrations (read:customers) come when people don't have it together. When they fail to follow what I consider perfect common sense. I used to have MSNBC as my homepage. I find that I'm happier in the mornings with google being the first thing I see instead.

It is probably not the nicest thing to say, but I don't really believe in "causes", as most INFPs seem to do. The individual is what is important. It is on the individual scale that the most important battles of good and evil take place. I hear no call to go into the world and help people. That doesn't mean I will ignore them, it just means that I must trust in each person to show some morality, and sense of decency. I *shouldn't* trust it, but its immoral itself not to give them a chance.


This is a quote from a page describing INFPs, "They conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place, full of wondrous possibilities and potential goods. In fact, to understand Healers, we must understand that their deep commitment to the positive and the good is almost boundless and selfless, inspiring them to make extraordinary sacrifices for someone or something they believe in."
This is far from me. I see the world as a generally broken and corrupt place. Positive and 'the good' are something everyone should have. I embrace it a lot less than I should, but I also believe you need that sense of the dark. That it gives you strength. Yes, strength. In much the same way a crippled virus introduced to your system puts your body on guard against it in the future. Don't leave it unchecked, but be aware that its there, and what it can do to you. You in a personal manner, not a detached 'violent news story' manner. You don't get rid of sin by ignoring it.

There are some things about INFPs I see in myself, but I don't think this is me. Least not the majority of me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tossing out your theory. I'm just not seeing it. Let me ask you something, did you say INFP because of my whole speech on the love of fantasy? Because outbursts (even in the internet) are rare for me.
 

gandalf

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One thing to note:
What you are reading in type descriptions is the extreme of what the individual representing the type could be. The types are about preferences and the descriptions tell you what happens when you act according to those preferences. But the older and mature you grow, the more difficult it will be to type you as you learn to use not only your preferred functions but the others as well. Also, a preference if a preference even when when it's very weak, and if you do have a weak preference for a letter, you may find another type fitting yourself as well.

I am an INTJ and I am sure of that but I also know that I my preference for J is weak. The result is that I find the INTP descriptions fitting me almost as well as those of INTJ. Furthermore, according both online tests and reading of descriptions, my Fi (introverted feeling functions, the tertiary function of INTJ) is exceptionally high to be tertiary function. I guess it is because of that that I also find many characteristics of INFJ (more) and INFP (less) in me.

What makes me sure of me being INTJ instead of INTP is my reactions in situations in which I really have to come up with something quickly. In those cases, I am definitely a judger, showing the INTJ "aura of seemingly infinite self-confidence" :)

As for you, how about trying to figure out if you have weak preferences as well?
 

luismas

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There are some things about INFPs I see in myself, but I don't think this is me. Least not the majority of me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tossing out your theory. I'm just not seeing it. Let me ask you something, did you say INFP because of my whole speech on the love of fantasy? Because outbursts (even in the internet) are rare for me.

Well, my 'theory' is there to be improved, ain't it? :) The fantasy element is related to intuition ; in your case, it seems to be extraverted intuition. INTP may be a better fit, given the above descriptions. Would you like to take another test? http://kisa.ca/personality/
Take your time in picking the best options, then show us the results :)
 

TenebrousReflection

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My incination is toward you being and INTx of some kind, but I do think you have some misconceptions about NFs - INFPs in particular are hard to type because Fi is about values and what an INFP values is specific to the indivdual and can sometimes make us look like other types. Most INFP descriptions are likely to be of either Enneagram 9 or Enneagram 4 INFPs (they can look quite different, and an Enneagram 5 or 6 INFP will also be different than either of those). Since you mentioned having high scores on Enneagram 4 and 6 it is worth considering INFP and INFJ, but theoreticaly any MBTI type can be any Enneagram type and it can certainly explain not fitting the stereotype for any specific type.

Hmm, I'm looking at INFP and I'm sorry but there are a couple of things that just clash with their description and me. Healers are known to follow their feelings. While I have strong feelings from time to time, for the longest time I have taken the view that following your heart is idiotic, because feelings will lie to you. Sometimes they are appropriate, but many times they will lead you into trouble. Experience with depression is living proof of this.

That statement does read as one with a strong thinking preference, but another way to look at it is to ask yourself what you would do if you were faced with a decision that you had to choose between what was logical and what you felt strongly about. If logic and what is right to you always agree and you never feel torn between the two, then you are probably a "T", but if you have a strong sense of right and wrong that sometimes chooses "what is right to you" over the most logical solution, then you have at least some feeling preference - how often you choose logic over your sense of right and wrong and how much you struggle with it are things to consider.

If I'm reading this right, INFPs tend to seek out harmony, so all will be at peace together. I like harmony as well, but as horrible as it is, i like it not because I believe everyone should be at peace, but because it is order. Don't misunderstand me, I'm no anal retentive I have a casual sense of order. Flexible. However most of my frustrations (read:customers) come when people don't have it together. When they fail to follow what I consider perfect common sense. I used to have MSNBC as my homepage. I find that I'm happier in the mornings with google being the first thing I see instead.

http://www.aesthetic-images.com/ebuie/infp-musings.html said:
INFPs and harmony

Classical "type wisdom" and the common descriptions of INFPs often say that INFPs value harmony above all and will go to great lengths to avoid conflict. Some profiles even say that we value other people's feelings above our own. Some INFPs agree that this describes them very well. Others say it doesn't resonate.

Observation: Some INFPs value harmony much more than other INFPs do.

I have yet to meet an INFP who actually likes conflict. We pretty much all agree that we'd rather live without it. But for some of us (I won't even hazard a guess about how many), other values are simply more important. We are willing to give up harmony when we can't have it and satisfy a higher-priority value at the same time.

Conclusion: INFPs who often find themselves in conflict are those for whom other values take priority over harmony.

I speculate that this harmony thing is one cause of the self-doubts that many INFPs seem to have about whether or not they are really INFPs.

I am one of those INfps that does not relate to the descriptions of our type that tells how harmonious we are. I care about a positive mood in my presence, but I enjoy debate and friendly arguments and I also play devil's advocate just for the fun of it (one of my pet peeves is blind belief in anything, so I like to make sure someone has actually put some thought into what they believe and I will challenge their beliefs (even if they are my own) to see if they are sheep or not)

It is probably not the nicest thing to say, but I don't really believe in "causes", as most INFPs seem to do. The individual is what is important. It is on the individual scale that the most important battles of good and evil take place. I hear no call to go into the world and help people. That doesn't mean I will ignore them, it just means that I must trust in each person to show some morality, and sense of decency. I *shouldn't* trust it, but its immoral itself not to give them a chance.

I have mixed feelings about "causes" and the desire to be a champion for something, but I share the belief that the individual is whats important. Other xNFPs can comment on this, but I think the "crusader" is more of the ENFP stereotype and the "clarifier/healer" is the INFP stereotype - we may or may not get involved in a cause, but if we do, we will more than likely interact with individuals in a one on one basis to try to make a difference - for me, this means doing things like "helping others reach their potential", "helping others understand things (especially themselves)" and "encouraging/supporting the creative side of others".

This is a quote from a page describing INFPs, "They conceive of the world as an ethical, honorable place, full of wondrous possibilities and potential goods. In fact, to understand Healers, we must understand that their deep commitment to the positive and the good is almost boundless and selfless, inspiring them to make extraordinary sacrifices for someone or something they believe in."
This is far from me. I see the world as a generally broken and corrupt place. Positive and 'the good' are something everyone should have. I embrace it a lot less than I should, but I also believe you need that sense of the dark. That it gives you strength. Yes, strength. In much the same way a crippled virus introduced to your system puts your body on guard against it in the future. Don't leave it unchecked, but be aware that its there, and what it can do to you. You in a personal manner, not a detached 'violent news story' manner. You don't get rid of sin by ignoring it.

http://www.aesthetic-images.com/ebuie/infp-profile.html said:
INFP's look at humanity at both the individual (human-to-human) and societal levels. One common discouragement for INFP's is that societal change often seems impossible. When INFPs become discouraged, they may need some time and space to rediscover their values and a sense of inner peace. The conflict between their ideal world and "reality", as they see it can cause depression or withdrawal from the world unless they have people that support them in their projects.

I think "cynical idealist" would describe many INFPs. my idealized world would indeed be a prety close match to the above description, and I often try to convince myself that most people are ethical and have more good than evil in them, and that its just the few bad apples that exploit the goodness of others that make it look like more people are untrustworthy than actually are. I tend to be very skeptical of anyone in the world of business or politics, but for everyone else, I take the approach that they have a mix of both goodness and selfishness in them and that they will opt for goodness more often than not - Where I am very cynical tho is the matter of honor, I've seen many "good hearted" people that display no sense of honor, so seeing someone as honorable is something that only occurs after I have known them long enough to make a judgment.

There are some things about INFPs I see in myself, but I don't think this is me. Least not the majority of me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not tossing out your theory. I'm just not seeing it. Let me ask you something, did you say INFP because of my whole speech on the love of fantasy? Because outbursts (even in the internet) are rare for me.

Thats good, thats the kind of reaction to reading type descriptions you want to pay attention to - thats basically how I feel about the INTJ description applied to me.

INFP and INTJ do have more in common than one might think at first glance, so for the benefit of theory...

INTJs and INFPs share cognitive funtions preferences for Te (extroverted thinking) and Fi (introverted feeling) but they have a different order of importance to each type. They differ on Ni (introverted intuition) vs Ne (extroverted intuition) and Se (extroverted sensing) vs Si (introverted sensing).

INTJ - Ni>Te>Fi>Se
INTP - Fi>Ne>Si>Te
INFJ - Ni>Fe>Ti>Se
INTP - Ti>Ne>Si>Fe
 
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