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[INTJ] INTJ breakdown

elfinchilde

a white iris
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
1,465
MBTI Type
type
eh. hang on a moment. Haphazard, with reference to your OP: you were meaning that personally, isn't it?

As in, it is you who are currently under stress, and feeling like you're breaking down. Hence you wish to know what the 'classic' reaction of a typical INTJ is like under stress, so you can see if that is like you?

ie, it's not wanting to find out "how do i irritate an INTJ to explosion", but wanting to know the reaction of an INTJ under stress, for purposes of self-identification?
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
eh. hang on a moment. Haphazard, with reference to your OP: you were meaning that personally, isn't it?

As in, it is you who are currently under stress, and feeling like you're breaking down. Hence you wish to know what the 'classic' reaction of a typical INTJ is like under stress, so you can see if that is like you?

ie, it's not wanting to find out "how do i irritate an INTJ to explosion", but wanting to know the reaction of an INTJ under stress, for purposes of self-identification?

Not for purposes of self-identification. I may be under stress, but I want to know what to look out for for myself.

Self-help, I suppose.

A bit of searching definitely has me thinking that I'm at least dominant Ni, or dominant Ne, but either way definitely not INTP. While I'm waiting for someone I know to discuss and finalize the idea of it, I'm trying to help myself, or at least keep myself under control.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
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Apr 23, 2007
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3,504
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INTP
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5w6
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so/sx
If values are determined by Fi, would that mean that for INTPs and ISTPs, values will inherently be their downfall?

That can't be right...

Everyone has values. Feeling, however is best at making conscious assessment of values and recognizing them.

ITPs tend to have classical Thinking values.

Competence.
Autonomy (Because of their intense introversion, as well as the need for competence prompts them to chart their own course)
Clarity of thought
Truth to self (As Introverted Judgers, they must earnestly believe that they are true to their principles. Much contrasted with the Extroverted Judgers who would be much more easily satisfied with merely meeting an external standard.)

In response to Kiddo the following should be noted.

The INTP is more individualistic than an INFP because of the competence factor. (Both are highly individualistic because of the intense introversion)

The INFP is pulled towards collectivism because of the need for emotional affirmation, whilst the INTP is not.

The INTP is more individualistic than the INTJ because the INTP's introversion is higher. Judging functions are more focused than perceiving functions. Accordingly, we adduce that Introverted Thinking is more internally focused than Introverted Intuition. Secondly, because the INTP has a higher need for competence as the Thinking need is stronger.

The INTP is more individualistic than the ENFP because his introversion is higher. As well as the need for competence.

Types listed from most individualistic to least

1)INTP
2)INFP
3)INTJ(ahead of the INFJ because of the factor of pure introversion)
4)INFJ

Here we notice that the salient factor for individualism is introversion, followed by the need for competence represented by Thinking.

5)ENTP
6)ENFP
7)ENTJ
8)ENFJ


Here we confront a rather odd issue. The ISTP is clearly more introverted than the four types listed above, but why is it less individualistic? The answer to this question because in order for one to be a true individualist, one must have an individualistic view of the world. The ISTP, lacking intuition is forced to rely on concrete views of the world passed down to him by others. Intuition is necessary for one to be an independent thinker.

9)ISTP
10)ISFP
11)ISTJ
12)ISFJ
13)ESTP
14)ESFP
15)ESTJ
16)ESFJ

************Most important note of the post****************

Under no circumstances do not apply this model to persons you observe. This merely sheds light on our unconscious tendencies towards individualism, but no further. This was an inquiry into type and not personality.

For a more specific notion of type review section I of http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...sonality-matrices/5200-problems-typology.html.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Re:Article on the INTJ

The fundamental error of the article was associating such collectivistic behaviors with Fi, and incidentally insinuating that values are strictly a Feeling property. We all have values as values are merely a result of notions that we approve of or disapprove of. This requires a Feeling based judgment. Not all of us are good at such judgments, yet because all of us inevitably experience feelings, all of us therefore have values. As my earlier ITP example has hopefully evinced.


Fi does not represent its values in concrete terms, especially not to be true to principles through concrete actions.

The nature of Extroverted Judgment is symbolic. Te and Fe are most concerned with expressing principles in action or symbols ostensible to all. Like in the present case 'drowning with the ship'.

An Introverted Feeler, would seek to stay true to his inner principles, but would have little interest in expressing such a mindset. The more neurotic, the more internally focused he will be. The more internally focused, the less expressive.

The INTJ described above is very expressive of his principles, and as an extroverted judger he seeks to apply his principles to the external world. To every little bit of it. The introverted judger, in this case Fi, would have little interest in applying his principles to the internal world. They need not be acted out, they only need to be felt with sincerity. What in this article we find is a case of malfunctioning Extroverted Judgment and not Introverted. The only ostensible way Introverted Feeling is involved in such a case is that it blindly supports the ways of Extroverted Judgment. This is the Hegelian master-slave dialect. Or in plain English, our less developed functions are enslaved by the more developed. The simplest example of this is the Ni of the INJ distorting sensations and memories to better befit a hunch. Fi could be distorted in a very similar fashion by the prevailing faculties, in the case of the INTJ it is both Ni and Te. In this case it is Te. What we have here is the INTJ experiencing supporting Feelings of their Te decision to show punctiliously show off their principles to the external world.



--------------------------------------------------------------

Re Kiddo's comment concerning collectivism of Ti and Fe.

The Jungian definition of Introversion is the attitude that defines the world by its inner agenda.

Extroversion is the attitude that defines the inner life by the external agenda.

We'd do well to associate Introversion with individualism and Extroversion with collectivism.

This leaves us with good reasons to deem Fe radically collectivist, not only on grounds of Extroversion but also because of the emotional dependency on others. Yet, I see no reason at all to deem Ti collectivist. Ti is first and foremost intensely introverted and of all functions relies on emotional support of others the least. You'd do well to argue that some types with Fe and Ti tend to be collectivist, as EFJs, especially ESFJs are a striking case in point. Yet this is the case solely by virtue of the dominant Extroverted Feeling factor. Introverted Thinking detracts from such an intense collectivistic mindset. The type, however, remains one of radical collectivism because the voice of Introverted Thinking is repressed by the dominant Extroverted Feeling. This shows that primacy of Fe over Ti is necessary for the collectivist attitude to ensue.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Blue, that was a very insightful post, but that was meant as sarcasm.
 

Usehername

On a mission
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May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
Do all discussions here break down into exchanges personal rivalries and animosity?

Excuse me, I'm kind of new here. I'm still trying to figure out this place.

No... this place is really quite relaxing and amicable. You're just getting a statistically unlikely event (although we have had things like this in the past).
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
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2,790
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OMNi
I have to admit BW, that post does make me rethink the issue.
 

redacted

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Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
The INTP is more individualistic than an INFP because of the competence factor. (Both are highly individualistic because of the intense introversion)

The INFP is pulled towards collectivism because of the need for emotional affirmation, whilst the INTP is not.

the principles that Fi holds differ much more among people than those of Ti. in that sense, Fi is more individualistic...

two INFPs will disagree much more often than two INTPs will.
 

Firelie

Magical
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Apr 18, 2008
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836
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INTJ
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I cracked once. It was after 35+ hours of no sleep, thinking I was having heart trouble/breathing problems, and my roommates were gone for the weekend so I was all alone.

It was nothing spectacular, I just walked around the house bursting into tears for no reason...which is not something I've ever done. It was strange and disturbing.
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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9,801
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4w5
Mr. Wing, your "Individua-list" is comical, at best.

I wonder what it would be like to live in a world where every multidimensional concept happened to be funneled, processed and regurgitated so, well, simplistically.

Let me guess, you have a slightly expressed N?
 

matmos

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Mar 24, 2008
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NICE
I cracked once. It was after 35+ hours of no sleep, thinking I was having heart trouble/breathing problems, and my roommates were gone for the weekend so I was all alone.

It was nothing spectacular, I just walked around the house bursting into tears for no reason...which is not something I've ever done. It was strange and disturbing.

Chuckles. I love it when people underplay breakdowns. It always reminds me of the scene in Dr Strangelove:

Gen. Ripper: Were you ever tortured, Group Captain?
Mandrake: Oh, just a bit, Jack.

Edit 2: One of the keepers at John Aspinall's wildlife range had his hand bitten off by a lion. When asked on his hospital bed how he felt he replied that the whole incident "had rather spoiled" his morning.

Classic!

Edit: It usually is spectacular, your just too good at quantifying the experience.
 

Firelie

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Chuckles. I love it when people underplay breakdowns. It always reminds me of the scene in Dr Strangelove:

Gen. Ripper: Were you ever tortured, Group Captain?
Mandrake: Oh, just a bit, Jack.

Edit 2: One of the keepers at John Aspinall's wildlife range had his hand bitten off by a lion. When asked on his hospital bed how he felt he replied that the whole incident "had rather spoiled" his morning.

Classic!

Edit: It usually is spectacular, your just too good at quantifying the experience.

Well, I mean it wasn't spectacular when you think of the insane things that tend to happen when people have breakdowns. Being unreasonably emotional ISN'T spectacular when I could've, say, run screaming down my street, carjacked a passing motorist and crashed the car into the nearest 7/11......or something. Yeah.

Fun examples, by the way. I've said stuff like that before.
 

Wolf

only bites when provoked
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Apr 24, 2007
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INTJ
...It was after 35+ hours of no sleep...
Now that I think about it, both of mine were after some period of sleeplessness coupled with emotional things on top of helplessness and firm expectations that exploited me.

Really, the best solution would have been for me to go with my first inclination in both cases and leave the people that treated me like that to deal with things on their own.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
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the principles that Fi holds differ much more among people than those of Ti. in that sense, Fi is more individualistic...

two INFPs will disagree much more often than two INTPs will.

Fi is more subjective indeed, yet this has little to do with being individualistic.

In order for one to be individualistic, one must have principles that embrace individualism. Simply differing from others isnt sufficient. Fi will be forced to erect principles which will seek out common ground with others. This is the case because of their need for emotional support and harmony with others. Therefore the principles they will have to establish much conduce to harmony with others.

The principles of INTPs will be more objective because they rely on logic to establish them. However, the INTPs will not need to have their principles incorporate harmony with others.

INFPs by and large tend to value first and foremost harmony with themselves, harmony with others, and their own personal growth. (Usually becoming most humane and compassionate as possible)

This is the general set of INFP values. Yet individual INFPs will likely disagree on the nuances of what harmony with self and others or true compassion is. However, despite this, in their own subjective ways, which often differ very much from the ways of people who surround them, the INFPs will adjust their principles to be in harmony with others.(I think that almost all INFPs value compassion, they may disagree about the specifics of such a virtue, yet they should all agree about the core. I highly doubt that we will find many INFPs whose notion of compassion involves shadenfreude or sadism. INFPs tend to have the set of values I've described because of their strong Feeling nature which insists on personal sympathy) This therefore detracts from their individualism as the aforementioned is a collectivistic endeavor.


In condensed form: Despite the radically subjective approach to values and that INFPs will be more likely to disagree on what compassion is than INTPs would be more likely to disagree on what autonomy is, INFPs will strive to be in harmony with other INFPs that they may disagree with. Generally the Fi approach has no desire to force values on others, but it very much does want to be at peace with them. The INFP tends to accept people for who they are irrespectively of how different or disagreeable from them such people may be. The case in point for this is how John Milton romanticized Satan in the Paradise Lost and how Dostoevsky's Alyosha Karamazov loved the rogue Dmitriy and the narrator noted that he never had anything sinister to say about anyone. Not even about the most disreputable of individuals, the more wicked a person was, the more he loved him.

An example even closer to home is the behavior of INFPs on INFPgc where they have a difficult time condemning even murder. Any kind of negative 'judging' of other people, no matter how nefarious they may be is strongly discouraged.

Such things show that subjectivity which leads to disagreement does not at all get in the way of harmony.

In the end I stand by my thesis that the INFP is less individualistic than the INTP because they have to concoct principles which will allow for them to be at harmony with others, INTPs do not.
 

Veneti

New member
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Aug 19, 2007
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XNTX
I've been doing some reading (as usual) and now I'm curious.

What makes an INTJ crack? Don't tell me they can't because I know they have to be able to. What's an INTJ like when they've finally lost it? They love control and they would never want to show weakness like this, so it's my guess that when one finally does crack in the presence of others, the resulting breakdown is quite spectacular. What are the warning signs, and what can they do to prevent breakdown?

This is for my understanding, only. I'm not trying to drive an INTJ to insanity and then submission with this information, it's to settle my curiosity.

Thanks.

Generally INTJs (The seriously competitive ones) generally explode at some point, generally its the first relationship that pretty much does it, or any other situation where infinite logic and thought still will not remedy the situation.

INTJs that don't learn from this (and be a bit more like flotsam on the waves) often repeat the cycle. Or go supernova.
 

Jae Rae

Free-Rangin' Librarian
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979
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A female INTJ friend of mine, driven to despair by the death of her dog killed in a car accident, insisted that her husband drive her to Animal Control in the middle of the night so she could leave a note for the already deceased dog, apologizing for not taking better care of him.

Jae Rae
 

Kristiana

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Dec 28, 2007
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INTJ
Dangerous question ;)

Post-traumatic stress disorder will do it, if severe enough. I speak from experience.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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I remember when I thought I was going to be expelled...

I barely moved, I barely ate, and that went on for about four days. Every time I stood up I thought I was going to throw up. I was so sure that they were going to expel me and throw away my future without giving me a second chance.

But you know, looking back on it, it doesn't look like so much. :p
 

umop_3pisdn

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Jan 15, 2008
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INTJ
I've had a few breakdowns.... though I'm using the word liberally. I wouldn't really consider any of them an actual breakdown. It's usually not incredibly devastating, and picking up the pieces isn't that hard, afterwards... but it can be very intense while it lasts!

I've been frustrated to tears or angry outbursts... but they're not terribly common. My repressed feelings also usually find some way out, before reaching critical pressure... so it's usually not incredibly devastating, when the dam breaks. I wouldn't classify them as "spectacular", but only because spectacular implies some sort of art behind it's presentation. Mine are more "spectacular" in an ugly and artless way. It's sort of like a train-wreck. It's horrible, yet you can't help but watch it, sitting at the edge of your seat... :shock:

For me, it's mostly how others describe. I get incredibly reckless, I generally just stop caring, and I engage in mindlessly sensate activities to escape myself or numb my consciousness.
 

FallsPioneer

New member
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Dec 21, 2007
Messages
260
MBTI Type
INTJ
When I have a passive breakdown, I usually get really silent and morbid, not saying a word. I'll be sitting in one place forever, ruminating on something and never focusing on more pressing things.

I've only had one explosive breakdown. I yelled a lot, and nothing else. It was also a long time coming, as I had kept in a lot of frustration over (something) for a while.
 
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