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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badlands View Post
    I think the standards that typically define merit in society were invented by TJs because they were the ones that wanted control over them most (Te).
    Ha, very good. Yes, it's not necessarily that the system is biased towards Te... it's that Te people normally gravitate towards developing systems of control (!). The INTPs (and similar people) meanwhile are led to abdicate involvement, because they just don't care... until it impact their freedom to think.

    I was very quiet as a child.

    I watched people carefully, to figure them out, not interacting... just observing.

    I explored my world thoroughly, always wanting to see what was around the bend, so I could understand how it worked. (And I would play around with things to figure it out.)

    I read voraciously, bringing home shopping bags of books weekly. Went through the whole local library, basically.

    Fascinated by processes, by the concepts underlying mechanical behavior. I loved Wile E. Coyote cartoons, and the Mousetrap game, and any sort of "systematic behavior" -- I wanted to see how it all worked together to result in a particular outcome. This eventually spilled out into more "human-oriented" systems ... like culture, religion, philosophy, psychology, etc... systems with more ambiguity.

    I loved critiquing things -- movies, books, ideas, behavior (judging people by their spoken values versus their actual behavior), religious systems, etc.

    The drive/focus towards all that was pretty much instinctive, not learned. It's what I did naturally.

    So no, I don't think being an INTP is a choice; we're damned from birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Thats one thing I'll never get, is that women are so bad at maths (As an average). I've met really smart women who just can do numbers. Then again there's really smart guys who have no F empathy... Hmmm
    My hunch is that the estrogen quotient pushes women to personalize things; it's less the raw ability to do math, more that they are pushed by biology (and then by culture) into approaching things from a more humanist and less technical perspective. It is interesting to see highly technical women switch gears when they get back to the house and their kids are around.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    isn't it Ne that's the INTPs secondary function instead of Ni? Just dropping in to ask
    Yup. Sorry. I confused one with the other. But you're right.

  3. #13
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I can't seem to find the post where Athenian200 said that being an INTP is like being a victim in a car crash
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I don't think that someone with Te just went around and developed systems without provocation, though they probably thought about it. The Te came in because of a need. People wanted efficiency and Te could deliver.

    As for if you're born as an INTP or not... I think that's a point which has been argued about for ages. Personally I'm coming to agree with my father that the core of the type is inborn, the expression is learned. After all how else would I be a P when my sister (who's older), mother and father are all Js. I think the only P in my immediate family is my dad's mother who I didn't see often.

    Hardly scientific proof but there again I always doubt their certainty anyway.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    Member suzyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Thats one thing I'll never get, is that women are so bad at maths (As an average). I've met really smart women who just can do numbers.

    Then again there's really smart guys who have no F empathy... Hmmm

    I think still think what I've still said in the last 2 sentences is why MBTI used them as a differentiator between Men and Women for job (Err I mean trait) profiling.
    You know, I was the first girl who posted, and that doesn't mean all females are bad at math. I've had problems with math ever since I was a little kid. Unless you did a census, you don't have any proof that women are bad at math. Plus, I've seen a lot of female accountants in Asian countries.
    "I can write better than anybody who can write faster, and I can write faster than anybody who can write better."
    - A. J. Liebling

  6. #16
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suzyk View Post
    You know, I was the first girl who posted, and that doesn't mean all females are bad at math. I've had problems with math ever since I was a little kid. Unless you did a census, you don't have any proof that women are bad at math. Plus, I've seen a lot of female accountants in Asian countries.
    I've seen plenty of accountants that are women, I did the equiv of a US CPA. Asians have a preference for J type activities. It might be a function of their process orientated education or a genetic trait. I know people from Sg and I know how they study at school. Look at Japanese culture and Indian propensity for IT.... Its J all over.

    Accountancy isn't a good representation of "math", you don't need to be good at math to be good at accountancy, just good at rules and attention to detail.

    Before even looking for stats on the relative merits and abilities of Men and Women at Math (And I'm sure there is evidence, I've observed enough of it) try looking at the differences in the configeration of Male and Female brains, how they "feel" how they use Grey and White matter... you might just see some quite interesting differences.

    One thing people should always realise... Nature is not politically correct.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Oh yes, While it can be argued that men and women have potentially the same ability at math (and you need to be careful about citing wrote learning at school) there is definite proof that men and women have different propensity for variability in IQ. (WHich I believe is based on the double XX versus the XY like in the peopensity to have other conditions).

    As like in this slide for instance.

    pinker_Page_41

    Hence, given I tend to be involved in a workplace where the highest IQ is paid for its not surprising that a lot of genetically abnormal high end IQ types are male (Its a positive handicap rather than a negative one), maths is pattern forming and pattern forming seems often to be the emphasis within IQ tests. Obviously we can argue till the cows come home. As a population we might be average, but in varability we are not.

  8. #18
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    Oh yes, While it can be argued that men and women have potentially the same ability at math (and you need to be careful about citing wrote learning at school) there is definite proof that men and women have different propensity for variability in IQ. (WHich I believe is based on the double XX versus the XY like in the peopensity to have other conditions).
    XX tends to create a 'safer' personality and intelligence range than XY -- you know, men being more expendable in the long run to the human race. (Nature is not politically correct).

    This leads to a lot of men on the high end of IQ and math proficiency, and also a lot of men on the low end of IQ and math proficiency... Women tend to be closer to an average. This average is likely forced down by societal norms that women are forced to conform to, because women are usually affected more by these things than men.

    I've heard notes that men also tend to have more 'experimental' MBTI types than women. What exactly 'experimental' means I have no idea, but I'm guessing it might be more P (which may be potentially dangerous to a population) and maybe even more N. Then again, I've also heard that the general break between men on T/F was 60%/40%, while for women, the break was 40%/60%. The break doesn't look like that much, but it certainly seems like enough to cause stereotypes that aren't accurate enough and also cause the ruination of male/female relations...

    but here I am, off speculating.

  9. #19
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veneti View Post
    One thing people should always realise... Nature is not politically correct.
    What makes you think IQ is related to "nature"??
    A lot of scientific studies would rather show IQ scores are heavily culturally biased.
    See, Gould's essay, for instance...

    ---

    Why am I not surprised to see you handle such a complex concept as "nature", and blend it with political values? :rolli:
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  10. #20
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    This leads to a lot of men on the high end of IQ and math proficiency, and also a lot of men on the low end of IQ and math proficiency... Women tend to be closer to an average. This average is likely forced down by societal norms that women are forced to conform to, because women are usually affected more by these things than men.
    Woman are more Se and environment affected? Sounds accurate, but this is probably because of the culture they are born into having different expectations for a woman.

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