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  1. #31
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!
    Soooo true.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  2. #32
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mujigay View Post
    The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.
    I don't know man. That's just kind of what guys do. They strategize, plot, and figure out how to get what they want. Figuring out what to expect in a relationship may not necessarily result in him completely compromising his hide. Even if he's making a project out of it, projects have the potential to be mutually beneficial.

  3. #33
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mujigay View Post
    The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I don't know man. That's just kind of what guys do. They strategize, plot, and figure out how to get what they want. Figuring out what to expect in a relationship may not necessarily result in him completely compromising his hide. Even if he's making a project out of it, projects have the potential to be mutually beneficial.
    If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!
    This is literally the most apt explanation of the INTJ-romance conundrum I've heard today. The line between rational/planning and irrational/rushing becomes unbelievably blurred and it's extremely difficult to make any sort of decent decision without being compromised. At least we're more aware of it, though (at least in my experience, we are). My ENTP roommate just doesn't get that emotions can bleed through to the thinking side, and he's been having a really rough time with his recent breakup.

    Everybody's crazy. If you get involved with someone and a little crazy doesn't start showing up within the first couple of months, you need to back away slowly as they're probably, like, legit crazy. Like, Ted Bundy crazy. From what I gather, the best you can do is to find someone whose level of crazy is manageable and meshes well with your own.
    Agreed. I've decided it's going to take a special kind of crazy lady to settle down with a semi-detached, calculating, blunt, and socially-awkward professional killer. She's out there somewhere, but damn it-- I'm going have to sift through this entire beach of rhinestones to find that particular diamond.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  4. #34
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

    This is literally the most apt explanation of the INTJ-romance conundrum I've heard today. The line between rational/planning and irrational/rushing becomes unbelievably blurred and it's extremely difficult to make any sort of decent decision without being compromised. At least we're more aware of it, though (at least in my experience, we are). My ENTP roommate just doesn't get that emotions can bleed through to the thinking side, and he's been having a really rough time with his recent breakup.
    You can't stop the rational assessment and planning processes Trying to do so is just another way to stop being yourself - never a good idea. You can keep that process and its results to yourself, however, and make room for the spontaneous, "natural", feeling part to operate in parallel. In short, leaving room for the other person to affect the relationship, and for you to respond in suit.

    Letting the line between the two become blurred will cause confusion, but a balance can still be maintained. We cannot control the whole relationship, because we are responsible for only half of it. We can, however, know our own limits and values, and where we are willing to compromise, and where not. Keep your vision as a possibility in the background, allowing for likely permutations, and evaluate day by day based upon actual evidence, both subjective (how you feel about the relationship) and objective (observable facts). I think of it as making a decision piecewise, a bit like the crude method of adding up the area under different segments of a curve instead of calculating a proper integral from the function (especially useful when you don't know the function!).
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #35
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.

    I agree. Not everything goes as planned, so living in the moment of the relationship would probably alleviate any frustration. Then again, if you plan things out but don't like... steamroll them with some feeling that "THIS MUST HAPPEN MY WAY", then you could manage it. If you do plan then you're probably going to have to ask many questions and gather information about what's around the corner. I hope your romantic interests will be open to that eventually, but in all likelihood you're probably going to have to ease into it blind and take what opportunities you can when they arise. I'm being vague but hopefully you get it.

  6. #36
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    If I'm interpreting him correctly, I believe he means I'm overthinking and not letting it come naturally. Forcing is a bad idea, and I've been trying to ramp down the time-pressured parts of my designs. INTJs can't help making plans, but trying to map out a relationship is never a good idea. At least, that's what I'm taking away from your post. I could be very wrong. You are both correct to some extent, I feel.
    As an INTJ who can barely function without plans, I understand this very well. I also think this is one of the key reasons we can be so craptacular with relationships. The one thing I did is make sure I brought my ENFJ on board with my "vision" of the relationship route and not keep it to myself like I tended to do. I showed him I was willing to make adjustments to that and that his vision had to be as important as mine but it didn't have to be exactly the same as mine and I was good with that.

    I don't think even trying to stop overthinking is a good idea. It won't happen. You can only keep it in perspective. You can't map it. You can only turn the sails into the wind and hopefully your partner has the rudder and vice versa.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #37
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You can't stop the rational assessment and planning processes Trying to do so is just another way to stop being yourself - never a good idea. You can keep that process and its results to yourself, however, and make room for the spontaneous, "natural", feeling part to operate in parallel. In short, leaving room for the other person to affect the relationship, and for you to respond in suit.

    Letting the line between the two become blurred will cause confusion, but a balance can still be maintained. We cannot control the whole relationship, because we are responsible for only half of it. We can, however, know our own limits and values, and where we are willing to compromise, and where not. Keep your vision as a possibility in the background, allowing for likely permutations, and evaluate day by day based upon actual evidence, both subjective (how you feel about the relationship) and objective (observable facts). I think of it as making a decision piecewise, a bit like the crude method of adding up the area under different segments of a curve instead of calculating a proper integral from the function (especially useful when you don't know the function!).
    That sounds like excellent advice. I just need to actually step back and look the relationship over objectively from time to time, especially before I get lost in the whole "IT'S OK GUYS I CAN STILL FIX IT" mentality. Combining the two is going to be difficult, but with a bit of effort I'm sure it's a habit that can easily be learned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I agree. Not everything goes as planned, so living in the moment of the relationship would probably alleviate any frustration. Then again, if you plan things out but don't like... steamroll them with some feeling that "THIS MUST HAPPEN MY WAY", then you could manage it. If you do plan then you're probably going to have to ask many questions and gather information about what's around the corner. I hope your romantic interests will be open to that eventually, but in all likelihood you're probably going to have to ease into it blind and take what opportunities you can when they arise. I'm being vague but hopefully you get it.
    I love doing the questions bit. Makes me feel like I'm a detective... and they don't know that I'm getting information from them! Ha! Subtle information gathering (at least, I think it's subtle... some rare people know what I'm up to and that kinda weirds me out). I think I get what you're saying. Some days it's best to trust the Force rather than the targeting computer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    As an INTJ who can barely function without plans, I understand this very well. I also think this is one of the key reasons we can be so craptacular with relationships. The one thing I did is make sure I brought my ENFJ on board with my "vision" of the relationship route and not keep it to myself like I tended to do. I showed him I was willing to make adjustments to that and that his vision had to be as important as mine but it didn't have to be exactly the same as mine and I was good with that.

    I don't think even trying to stop overthinking is a good idea. It won't happen. You can only keep it in perspective. You can't map it. You can only turn the sails into the wind and hopefully your partner has the rudder and vice versa.
    My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  8. #38
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    That sounds like excellent advice. I just need to actually step back and look the relationship over objectively from time to time, especially before I get lost in the whole "IT'S OK GUYS I CAN STILL FIX IT" mentality. Combining the two is going to be difficult, but with a bit of effort I'm sure it's a habit that can easily be learned.
    It is not that hard, once you get into the habit, though it is best done when you are alone. Experience and enjoy whatever feelings, hopefully positive, the relationship engenders, but when they have settled a bit, recap events from the perspective of the proverbial fly on the wall. Also take note of things that make you feel uncomfortable, even if they seem trivial. These can be lost in the noise of the good experiences, and you can start deliberately ignoring them to keep things going, but they may turn out to be important. Don't make them into more than they are, but don't sugar coat them, either. Just examine to be sure nothing is there that violates What Must Not Be Compromised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.
    You can share the vision with a girl eventually, but if you do it too soon, it might easily turn out as you say, or just plain overwhelm her. As you get to know each other better, and mean more to each other, you can let her into it more gently and gradually. (A related aside: my SO had an excellent stereo system when we started dating. I had been about to upgrade my cheap, old one but decided to hold off since, if we stayed together, I wouldn't need one. I revealed this part of the vision only after we had lived together for almost a year!)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #39
    Senior Member Rex's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    I guess you will over time figure out the girls. What types that are unstable and so on.

    And btw don`t stress too hard. it makes it worse. been there done that. i think you where reading the posts i made when girls where in my focus.

    But regardless of sucsess.. it is usually extremely interesting and a big learning experience.
    Epic derailment:
    wierd memory work->Tamagochi->tetris->Starcraft2->thugs->Chess->german techno->Love parade->disaster->death..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1wH2...eature=related

  10. #40
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    My problem is that I can't usually get as far into the relationship as to feel comfortable being that honest with my partner. It comes across as a bit too evil mastermind/creeper to some people... I like the last part there, though. Gotta roll with what it is-- do the best I can to plot my course using the winds available to me.
    Right but I agree with Coriolis, you can't do this too soon. As time goes on in a relationship, you can disclose this AND ask what her vision is. I always did this with my ENFJ, although he was less likely to have the detailed plan that I did. The bad thing about that kind of planning is when things veer off somewhat, in my head I go... this is FUCKING UP MY MASTERPIECE!!! Then I quickly grab it all back and put it into perspective.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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