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  1. #21
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Well, I think you can discount the INFP from your study as a statistical error. If she was that messed up it had nothing to do with you, and you should simply look at your reasons for staying with her.

    Unfortunately I can't give the specific advice I would if I was an rl friend of yours. I do think cor is spot on with a lot of what they posted.

    Continue being yourself. Some women do appreciate the more reserved types of men (all the more mystery for us to unravel!) and one will stumble across you someday in the future. Maybe tomorrow, maybe 6 months from now... The best you can do is to take care of you so you will be prepared for that day.

    P.s. I is sorry for sneaking into this thread, but I wanted to give you some encouragement.
    Also, thank you, Saturned. It really is nice to know that there are some good ENFPs out there.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    The INFP (first case) seems like she was being driven by her own personal troubles. You might be able to learn more from the ENFP. If I were in your shoes, I would corner her and force the issue. Lay your own cards on the table: what you have observed, why you are confused. Make it clear that you are not criticizing or trying to change her behavior at all, you just want to understand her motivations and how she sees you. The closest I came to this was with a likely ISTP I dated many years ago. I could sense a loss of interest after a couple of months and asked directly: how do you see our relationship now? The answer was basically, "I see you more as a friend; we have fun together, but I guess I'm just not romantically into you." It was actually a relief. I was reassured, it was not me or anything I had done/not done. We remained on friendly terms which was fortunate, since we worked together.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #23
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Verily, I say unto ye,
    marry not an engineer.
    For an engineer is a strange being
    and possessed of many evils.

    Yea, he speaketh always in parables
    which he calleth formulae.
    He wieldeth a big stick
    which he calleth a slide rule.
    And he hath only one bible,
    a handbook.

    He thinketh only of strains and stresses,
    and without end of thermodynamics.
    He showeth always a serious aspect
    and seemeth not to know how to smile.
    He picketh his seat in a car by the springs thereof
    and not by the damsels.

    Neither does he know a waterfall
    except by its horsepower,
    Nor a sunset
    except that he must turn on the light,
    Nor a damsel
    except by her weight.

    Always he carrieth his books with him,
    and he entertaineth his sweetheart with steam tables.
    Verily, though his damsel expecteth chocolates when he calleth,
    She openeth the package to discover samples of iron ore.

    Yea, he holdeth her hand
    but to measure the friction thereof,
    and kisseth her
    only to test the viscosity of her lips,
    for in his eyes shineth a far away look
    that is neither love nor longing,
    but a vain attempt to recall formulae.

    Even as a boy, he pulleth a girl's hair
    but to test its elasticity.
    But as a man,
    he deviseth different devices.
    For he counteth the vibrations of her heartstrings
    And seeketh ever to pursue his scientific investigations.

    Even his own heart flutterings
    he counteth as a measure of fluctuation.
    And his marriage is but a
    simultaneous equation involving two unknowns.
    And yielding diverse results.

    Verily, I say unto ye,
    marry not an engineer.


    (origin unknown)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The INFP (first case) seems like she was being driven by her own personal troubles. You might be able to learn more from the ENFP. If I were in your shoes, I would corner her and force the issue. Lay your own cards on the table: what you have observed, why you are confused. Make it clear that you are not criticizing or trying to change her behavior at all, you just want to understand her motivations and how she sees you. The closest I came to this was with a likely ISTP I dated many years ago. I could sense a loss of interest after a couple of months and asked directly: how do you see our relationship now? The answer was basically, "I see you more as a friend; we have fun together, but I guess I'm just not romantically into you." It was actually a relief. I was reassured, it was not me or anything I had done/not done. We remained on friendly terms which was fortunate, since we worked together.
    This was actually something I had seriously, seriously considered doing, but I'm still a little wary of it because I don't want to make it seem like I'm hounding her. There's also the minor problem that she's always going somewhere after our mutual classes and uses that as an excuse to delay any meaningful discussion we might have otherwise had. I would love to have a debriefing session, however, so maybe in the near future I'll collect my guts and just do it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Ego Reparate; Ob Me Non Deficiat.
    INTJ - RCOEI - sx/sp/so - Tritype: 683 (6w5-8w9-3w4) - True Neutral
    "Yeah, wisdom always chooses/These black eyes and these bruises"
    "Over the heartache that they say/Never completely goes away..."

  5. #25
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    1) Honestly, the ideal relationship would be a serious one, but I'd even settle for a casual short-term one. I'm frankly just tired of being alone for so long.
    2) I attempted to ask the INFP, but got a bizarre roundabout answer that did not settle anything whatsoever (plus she was emotionally damaged and had cheated on me twice previously). The ENFP barely acknowledges me in public and will not respond to any electronic methods of communication whatsoever, so that particular option is not viable.
    I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:
    trying to compensate for deficiencies; a pretense at a self-confidence and self-respect; the effort to protect self-esteem with denial and evasion, which only results in a further deterioration of self-esteem.
    Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
    Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
    1st Initial Attraction (both)
    2nd Clinginess (You)
    3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
    4th Game over
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:

    Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
    Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
    1st Initial Attraction (both)
    2nd Clinginess (You)
    3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
    4th Game over
    I doubt Engineer is clingy. I do agree that the sense of "needing" a woman (or a man, for women) is not healthy, and likely to lead to bad decisions/relationships. Not sure he feels this way, either, though he seems to enjoy the companionship.

    The idea of self-esteem is a bit more complicated. INTJs usually have strong self-esteem overall, and Engineer seems to be no exception. As some type descriptions say, though, we know what we know and we know what we don't know. Most of us know when it comes to relationships, we are not the competent experts we are in other facets of life. We may thus have low self-esteem or perhaps confidence in this specific area, leading to an attitude of, "why would anyone like/love ME?" I have had this feeling myself from time to time. It quickly disspates, however, when I remind myself that the world is ful of people, many far stranger (and less responsible, intelligent, considerate, etc. etc.) than I am; and that I don't need everyone to like me, just a few people, who must surely exist somewhere. I also have the proof of this, in the friends I do have, and in my own longstanding relationship. When I was Engineer's age, though, I lacked the experience to give me this security.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #27
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Hello all. I am back again, this time with a new question and/or discussion opportunity.

    Having recently come to understand certain signs and behaviors, I have given up my long-term pursuit of the ENFP I've been on about for awhile now. Seeing as I'm an INTJ, and the "glorious plan" had to be entirely scrapped, I'm sort of at square one again and am currently reviewing the leftovers of previous relationships to establish some form of pattern of failure. In all of them, there seems to be a mysterious point where the woman's interest in me ends-- not really slowly, but all of a sudden, a great drop-off: the bugzapper effect. Things will be going fine one week, the next there's nothing going on at all.

    With my INFP ex, this happened after a week, with my ENFP prospect, this happened after a single day, and developed into a downward spiral where I am apparently not allowed to ignore her, but she is allowed to ignore me all she wants. Even recently, girls that seem interested will pull away mysteriously after a couple of days.

    What exactly am I doing wrong here? Is my robotic inside just that uninteresting? Am I too cold, too morbid, too awkward? Asking from a stance of genuine curiosity here, not like I'm being emo. I'd like to fix this, as I have been told that I am in the 7.6 to 8.2 range of looks, so having an equally-attractive method of approach would be nice.

    As for discussion, has any other NT had this happen to them as well? Is it that we seem a bit too calculating to other people or what? I am honestly confused, since this has happened five times in a row now and is seriously (super-super-cereal, guys) getting old.

    Help?
    To begin with, it sounds like the girls you're dealing with kind of suck. I can't comment on what you may be doing wrong with the hot/cold phenomenon, because I don't know you that well. I think that dating for NTJs is difficult because it really takes a certain kind of individual to be able to maintain a long-term, intimate relationship with us. You inevitably kiss a lot of frogs (or frogettes) as you're working out exactly who that person is. The fact that most people aren't going to work out for you should be taken as a given. If you think of dating as a process it becomes difficult to view the things that may go wrong as personal failings. There's always someone else out there, and (hopefully) you're constantly learning from your mistakes.

    I lol'ed at the mention of the "glorious plan". Our most basic tendancy definitely works against us when it comes to dating. Whether I care to admit it or not, I get fairly attached to my little plans and pet projects. I don't like my agenda to be derailed elsewhere, and am guilty of bringing those feelings into the relationship realm. The problem with that mentality crops up when you've long since recognized that the person's not right for you, but you're so hell-bent on the plan that you become willing to compromise, make excuses, and cling to something that should really be allowed to die. It also generally blows to be wrong. I think the sort of corollary to this idea is the ability to sense something in another person, and holding on as you're waiting for that wonderful thing to emerge when the house is falling down around your ears. That may be a general intuitve thing. It may be more of a woman thing. But I've always seen the two as the same issue--blinding yourself with your own mind's eye.

    The last thing I'll suggest is the possibility that you're insecurities about dating may have created a fairly common viscious cycle. You feel bad about self and ability to date--> date women you probably know on some level it won't work out with-->it doesn't work out-->feel bad about ability to date, ect. I don't really know how to resolve this one as I live more or less in the same world. I'm uncertain as to why it moved me, but I know @uumlau made an interesting post not too long ago about love, what it means to be in love, and what it feels like when you're on the right track. He said something I'd definitely heard before, but in a way that click for me. It might be interesting to you. I'm quoting him here:

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau
    It wasn't easy! Moving forward will be a challenge, too. I have to let go of a lot of the old emotions that I associate with romance (because despite their intensity they have nothing to do with love) and almost start from scratch.
    Yeah, that's the kind of thing I've been saying for a long while (and not just on your blog). Fortunately, it isn't "almost from scratch." You already know how to love, you just happened to put the "love" label on the wrong thing.

    Here's a clue. Love feels like what you feel right before you "fall in love." You feel more you. You feel that you are with someone who makes sense in your life. The "falling in love" and "romance" is the fear of losing that feeling. But the feeling is just the signal that love is present, it isn't love itself.

    Have you ever had those times in your life, however brief, where everything just "went right", that you couldn't do anything wrong, that everything right just happened by itself? That's the state of mind you're trying to capture. Doing "not doing." Just being yourself, and being yourself is exactly why everything goes right. Yes, this all maps back to the Tao and the other books I mentioned.

    Real love feels "normal," not romantic. The romance is there, the fun is there, the attraction is there, but the fear isn't there. The love "just is." It's a part of what you do and who you are. It's special and important, yes, but it's not as mind-blowing as when you first meet a new love. When something becomes a part of you, a part of your life, it must necessarily "feel normal," otherwise you wouldn't be yourself, and it wouldn't really be love.

    Even though I really want to find someone special to share the rest of my life with, I'm starting to think that I might need to simply let that go and date for a bit.
    Dating is good. Even better is just meeting people and getting to know them. If you look too hard for love, you won't find it, because you're going to end up disregarding all the "normal" goodness that would fit in your life, and looking for the special goodness that you think represents love, but isn't really love. Just be yourself, learn to become an even better version of yourself by becoming more you, and let your natural qualities shine through. Eventually, you'll find someone (probably several people) who like you just the way you are. Of those, some might even be in appropriate circumstances that something long-term is possible.
    Anyways. Hope any of that is helpful to you. Happy hunting, man.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #28
    Dependable Skeleton Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I think you have serious self esteem problems. It is called pseudo self esteem:

    Takes some time to recover the lost self esteem, but the first step is valuing yourself and (subtly) demand people to treat you in conformity. Seriously, chasing a girl that had cheated on you twice? You gotta respect yourself more.
    Oh, and you shouldn't need a woman, in first place. That is the worst place to begin. To start, you need to be happy alone. Otherwise, this is what is gonna happen:
    1st Initial Attraction (both)
    2nd Clinginess (You)
    3th Attraction decrease, usually combined with respect decrease (Her)
    4th Game over
    I appreciate your concern, but I don't believe that's my situation at all. Perhaps back in my teenage years, it would have been true, but I've had enough experience to know that women like men who are detached and independent.
    The INFP situation was one where she was quite emotionally distraught, and had just come out of an abusive relationship with another guy. For her sake, I did not want to slam the door on her, but attempt to be as forgiving and loving as possible. Of course, even that has its limits, which is why it ultimately ended.
    No disrespect intended when I say this: I've been living alone for over two decades. I'm quite comfortable being single, thanks. I have not, and likely never will, predicate my existence on being in a relationship, and I certainly did not say that I needed a woman, merely that I'd like one. To be frank, it's become rather old, being by myself. I'd like to see what a successful relationship has to offer, change up the way it's been for awhile, you know?

    I have great confidence, as a matter of fact. The one complaint I get from people who don't know me well is that I'm unbelievably arrogant. People who've worked with me for awhile know I'm only like that when I actually know what I'm doing, so they respect it.

    Thank you anyways for your concern and advice.

    Oh, also...
    I believe @Coriolis's post sums up my position quite concisely (almost poetically, I'd say as well). Thanks, Cor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    To begin with, it sounds like the girls you're dealing with kind of suck. I can't comment on what you may be doing wrong with the hot/cold phenomenon, because I don't know you that well. I think that dating for NTJs is difficult because it really takes a certain kind of individual to be able to maintain a long-term, intimate relationship with us. You inevitably kiss a lot of frogs (or frogettes) as you're working out exactly who that person is. The fact that most people aren't going to work out for you should be taken as a given. If you think of dating as a process it becomes difficult to view the things that may go wrong as personal failings. There's always someone else out there, and (hopefully) you're constantly learning from your mistakes.
    Oddly enough, I agree... My problem is that I forget that one kind of super-crazy person that's right for INTJs is quite rare, and will just go after what I think will work in the short term. I go for chemistry rather than assessment. But at the same time, I've got a neurotic list of reconnaissance on each potential subject listing pros and cons of each, so maybe I'm waffling between extremes. I'd definitely say I learn from mistakes. Makes all those failures mean something if you learn from them.

    I lol'ed at the mention of the "glorious plan". Our most basic tendancy definitely works against us when it comes to dating. Whether I care to admit it or not, I get fairly attached to my little plans and pet projects. I don't like my agenda to be derailed elsewhere, and am guilty of bringing those feelings into the relationship realm. The problem with that mentality crops up when you've long since recognized that the person's not right for you, but you're so hell-bent on the plan that you become willing to compromise, make excuses, and cling to something that should really be allowed to die. It also generally blows to be wrong. I think the sort of corollary to this idea is the ability to sense something in another person, and holding on as you're waiting for that wonderful thing to emerge when the house is falling down around your ears. That may be a general intuitve thing. It may be more of a woman thing. But I've always seen the two as the same issue--blinding yourself with your own mind's eye.
    I feel like this is what drives my relentless attitude towards keeping the relationship alive. If I can take responsibility for it, I can fix it, and it won't break. I factor out that other people are nigh-impossible to control via INTJ-schemes, and suddenly -blam- it blindsides me. You are absolutely right in the bolded text. Absolutely.

    The last thing I'll suggest is the possibility that you're insecurities about dating may have created a fairly common viscious cycle. You feel bad about self and ability to date--> date women you probably know on some level it won't work out with-->it doesn't work out-->feel bad about ability to date, ect.
    To some degree. The problem I face is that the girls I'm interested in usually turn out to be absolutely crazy, and I'm having a hard time realizing that from surface analysis alone. The cycle is pretty spot on, though. Thanks for the uumlau quote, as well! I knew there was a reason he was one of my favorite people on the forums...

  9. #29
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    The fact that you're making a "project" of these girls, and constructing elaborate plans to win them over may be a problem in and of itself.
    1w9 sx/sp
    A little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.

    All that is gold does not glitter
    Not all those who wander are lost

  10. #30
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
    Oddly enough, I agree... My problem is that I forget that one kind of super-crazy person that's right for INTJs is quite rare, and will just go after what I think will work in the short term. I go for chemistry rather than assessment. But at the same time, I've got a neurotic list of reconnaissance on each potential subject listing pros and cons of each, so maybe I'm waffling between extremes. I'd definitely say I learn from mistakes. Makes all those failures mean something if you learn from them.
    That's always the balance, isn't it? I think it takes an attraction that knocks an NTJ on their ass to be willing to go through all the ridiculous hoops that dating/intimacy/relationships require. Even if you're madly in love with someone the objective part never goes away. You see them for what they are, but something always gets lost in translation when it comes to your own actions. Feelings are just like...basically unhelpful when it comes to knowing how to function. Shenanigans I tell ya!


    The problem I face is that the girls I'm interested in usually turn out to be absolutely crazy, and I'm having a hard time realizing that from surface analysis alone.
    Everybody's crazy. If you get involved with someone and a little crazy doesn't start showing up within the first couple of months, you need to back away slowly as they're probably, like, legit crazy. Like, Ted Bundy crazy. From what I gather, the best you can do is to find someone whose level of crazy is manageable and meshes well with your own.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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