[NT] Degree = intelligence?

[SilkRoad]

Not without some serious technical training or perhaps a very high level of self taught skill in a trade or craft. The outlook for the person with just a HS diploma in the US is not very good. Even with a basic BA in a general subject it can be pretty tough to get your foot in the door of that rewarding career.

Hmm interesting that you would say that. Probably quite a lot depends on where you live. My career path has been something like this:

-by age 20 - had my BA in English literature with a minor in French. Had some freelance writing work under my belt already but no regular job. Got a couple of minimum wage jobs in my Canadian home town, in the library and at a bookshop, and later doing surveys.
-age 23 - moved to Ireland, started working in a call centre for a major airline (at least I got to use my French). Wanted to work in publishing but all the companies were pretty small and not hiring much or wanted people with more experience.
-age 26 - moved to London and worked for two years in customer relations for a different airline.
-age 28 - partly through a personal connection and partly through an agency, got temp work with one of the world's biggest publishing companies. Spent the next three years doing contracts and temp work for them. One of the contracts was especially good (maternity cover, managing editor for their children's lit division) but they didn't seem keen to give me a permanent job though they always told me how good I was...I think my "skilled temp" status was a bit too useful for them.
-age 31 - got a permanent job working on the publishing program for an institution which offers speech and drama exams to the public. I've been there over a year and it's going pretty well.
-Alongside all this for many years I was doing freelance writing and had several educational children's books published. Not doing that much any more, the writing I've been doing is more poetry and such.

I'm not sure what my career path says about my education etc. I did always want to work in publishing and here I am. But it took a good while. The airline stuff was good for a few years as I got to travel on the cheap and so on, but it was unrelated to what I was really interested in. I was lucky to get a foot in the door in publishing when I did, and the personal connection helped at least somewhat. It's nearly impossible in the current economic climate. But being in London has A LOT to do with me finally having the job I want, or at least a job I want enough. There are a lot of arts/publishing/etc jobs here, though it's still a difficult area to get into (especially now.) If I'd stayed in Canada or Ireland I kind of doubt it would have happened.

I think education is important if you want a good job in the area you're keen on, but experience is king. That's what I've observed. And personal connections, certainly in the arts, publishing, etc. To an annoying degree, actually. The person I knew initially in the publishing company had nannying experience, and no degree, and now has a pretty major position in that company. She does her job extremely well, but it's not like she was remotely qualified (that actually annoyed me a bit when I was struggling to get a permanent job with them.)

It also amuses me a bit that no one ever seems to ask for proof that I have a BA, though I guess they could contact my university on their own, as obviously it's on my CV.

 

[FDG]

It also amuses me a bit that no one ever seems to ask for proof that I have a BA, though I guess they could contact my university on their own, as obviously it's on my CV.

They never asked for mine, either. I think it's because if you work for a private company it's not considered as a strict requirement (i.e. by law), so it's technically not needed.

 

[tinkerbell]

A Ph.D. degree is generally more challenging than a Bachelor's degree so I'd be likely to perceive the Ph.D. as having a higher level of intelligence.

Not sure I'd agree with that, in my experience people who went on and did MA's or PhD's typically didn't want to get a job, so extended their education as long as physically possible. IT wasn't the brightest in the class either, but then I guess that depends on subjects taken. Education can and is often used as a means of procrastinating real adult responsibilities in my experience.

 

[SilkRoad]

Not sure I'd agree with that, in my experience people who went on and did MA's or PhD's typically didn't want to get a job, so extended their education as long as physically possible. IT wasn't the brightest in the class either, but then I guess that depends on subjects taken. Education can and is often used as a means of procrastinating real adult responsibilities in my experience.

I think this can be true...some really want to stay in the ivory tower of academia as long as possible. I've thought about getting a masters but I'm not sure I need it at this point and I'm not quite in love with studying as I used to be.

Then again, I think this might apply more to those who collect BAs and that sort of thing. To me, if you go for a PhD it suggests you're serious about becoming a professor/academic. I know a guy who won a Fulbright and has now done his PhD, he's been teaching at different universities in various capacities for a few years already.

 

[tinkerbell]

Then again, I think this might apply more to those who collect BAs and that sort of thing. To me, if you go for a PhD it suggests you're serious about becoming a professor/academic. I know a guy who won a Fulbright and has now done his PhD, he's been teaching at different universities in various capacities for a few years already.

Actually I've worked with a lot of PhD folks who are not heading towards teaching at Uni, so there is life after a phd, but one needs to ask oneself what you want to do with advanced qualifications. I'm a business grad, did very well ut had many classes with MBA students in my 3rd year, I would simply get nothing out an MBA because I learned that stuff in my degree, so I'd fancy doing wooly crap for fun - but then thats a lot of money.

The change in UK fees will reduce the numbers going into further education that don't have a career path to go onto, which iIMO is not a bad thing. I've several relatives with arty degrees who have done little to the GDP of the country post education. The investment of the tax payers money has not real return...

 

[SilkRoad]

Actually I've worked with a lot of PhD folks who are not heading towards teaching at Uni, so there is life after a phd, but one needs to ask oneself what you want to do with advanced qualifications. I'm a business grad, did very well ut had many classes with MBA students in my 3rd year, I would simply get nothing out an MBA because I learned that stuff in my degree, so I'd fancy doing wooly crap for fun - but then thats a lot of money.

The change in UK fees will reduce the numbers going into further education that don't have a career path to go onto, which iIMO is not a bad thing. I've several relatives with arty degrees who have done little to the GDP of the country post education. The investment of the tax payers money has not real return...

At the moment in the UK, I really don't envy anyone finishing school right now with either just their A-levels, or even a university degree. It's pretty tough. By comparison things were not tough at all when I was finishing uni...

The people you know getting a PhD not planning to teach, what are they planning to do? I agree it's a lot of money to spend on something you're just interested in, with little practical purpose!

 

[FDG]

We're 7 billion people in a highly mechanized (well, part of the world at least) world, we need a lot of completely unpractical jobs if we want people not to starve; alternatively, an overstrechted welfare state.

 

[guesswho]

What does a university education mean to you when it comes to your own worth or the worth of another individual?

it means that you work more, and may be smarter than some, depending on the degree.

A degree isn't necessarily a proof of intelligence, but I guess it's a proof that you're not stupid compared to other individuals.

 

[reason]

Normally, degrees require some minimum intelligence, though some degrees require a higher minimum than others. So, yes, in a purely statistical sense, I think degrees are a good indicator of intelligence.

Aside from that, degrees say more about personality, values, and social background than intelligence.

I am 25 and don't have a degree.

 

[Xyk]

If any of my peers had a degree, I would suddenly think extremely highly of them. My peers are 18. It would be damned impressive.

 

[SilkRoad]

If any of my peers had a degree, I would suddenly think extremely highly of them. My peers are 18. It would be damned impressive.

I started uni when I'd just turned 17, finished at 20. In retrospect I was very young!

 

[CrystalViolet]

17-21 for a four year degree. I seriously considered applying at 16, because I hated high school, but my school and mother advised against it. Some thing about peer groups, and me being socially disconnected.
Quite amusing, since I loved the social aspect of uni. Mind you, I guess nobody but my year 8 English teacher (who bless her cotton socks said nobody would get my humour until I went to uni) Thought that I'd actually be kinda popular there.
It was the first place I ever really belonged.

There in lies the rub, and the point where I have to say, uni was the first place I encountered people as intelligent as I, if not more so. I knew a few monkeys too though. And I've met more since, where I suspect they just paid for a peice of paper saying they have a degree.
Unfortunately, wether people like it or not, most people have to go through the process of a degree to prove they have some smarts. Unless you are lucky enough to work for a company that recognizes your abilities (and yeah, that happens) or you are discovered.
Two of the smartest people I know, never obtained a degree (one an INTP, and oddly enough one I suspect is a INFP). The INTP was truly brilliant, but was held back in his career, because he didn't have the magic piece of paper. Personally I think the company was run by very stupid people, who couldn't get past his poor social skills. He was really quite sweet, and very lonely. The INFP was also amazing too, but excruciatingly sensitive (I thought I was sensitive), and communicated with several very well known intellectuals, whose names escape me. I thought he was pulling my leg, until he showed me! pee'd my my pants I did. One day when he finially comes out his shell, I have no doubts he will write a book or books that will blow every one's mind.

 

[entropie]

man you peeps are quick in degreeing. i started school at age 7 and finished higher school regulary after 13 years, at age 20. Then I had to do 1 year of civil service cause I was to lazy and regulary too stoned to go to the army. After that i started to study German and English Literature Studies for 1 year. Then at age 22 I started to study mechanical engineering, which takes about 5 years regulary, but most normal people need 6 when you are doing internships and working parttime. I'll need 7 cause I rather like working fulltime next to university and am too lazy to learn . You have to write around 6 - 8, 2 - 3 hour long exams per semester and you basically never manage to pass em all, so it always takes a year longer.

So'll have my masters degree at age 29, I want to move to America my country sucks, too much work here

 

[bcubchgo]

I knew a 45 year old who didn't even finish high school, is very intelligent and self-educated in many ways. A good person to have discussions about literature and art and so on with, at least up to a point. However - it was a guy I was interested in, and I also discovered eventually that he was very insecure. I have a bachelors' degree and although I think he was at least somewhat attracted to me, I later realised that there was almost no way he would date a woman who has a lot more education than he does. He's kind of a power/control freak and likes to keep people in inferior/dependent positions. Also, in retrospect, although I liked the fact that he was self-educated in so many ways, and he had managed to become financially successful, I'm not so impressed by the fact that he never went back and at least finished school. I think he had reasons to drop out due to his family being poor and needing to work and so on, but I would view it at least as a positive thing initiative-wise to go back and finish school. With this individual I wondered if it was a sort of reverse snobbery thing where he might consider himself too good for that.

I think there are many people for whom this is true simply because when you are poor and uneducated the most effective way to prove your meddle is to use the power of brute force. The more stubborn you are the less you actually have to try to use your intellect to prove your point to people - and potentially fail. It's also harder to fail when you are in that situation because you have nothing to back yourself up with. I do think you are right about there being an element of reverse discrimination simply because it's a good way to bolster yourself if you need reaffirmation.

 

[SilkRoad]

I think there are many people for whom this is true simply because when you are poor and uneducated the most effective way to prove your meddle is to use the power of brute force. The more stubborn you are the less you actually have to try to use your intellect to prove your point to people - and potentially fail. It's also harder to fail when you are in that situation because you have nothing to back yourself up with. I do think you are right about there being an element of reverse discrimination simply because it's a good way to bolster yourself if you need reaffirmation.

Yes, good points. I do admire people who have made things happen for themselves through guts and determination. I don't like it though when it becomes anti-intellectualism or defensiveness or insecurity when confronted with those who have more education and so on, or when it's implied that people such as myself are spoiled (my parents were exceptionally careful not to spoil us) or that I am what I am purely because of being middle class.

Also, I think the above-mentioned guy is ESTJ, and while ESTJs can be great, in this sort of scenario I think it exacerbates all those power/control/awareness of social class/reverse snobbery tendencies.

 

[FDG]

man you peeps are quick in degreeing. i started school at age 7 and finished higher school regulary after 13 years, at age 20. Then I had to do 1 year of civil service cause I was to lazy and regulary too stoned to go to the army. After that i started to study German and English Literature Studies for 1 year. Then at age 22 I started to study mechanical engineering, which takes about 5 years regulary, but most normal people need 6 when you are doing internships and working parttime. I'll need 7 cause I rather like working fulltime next to university and am too lazy to learn . You have to write around 6 - 8, 2 - 3 hour long exams per semester and you basically never manage to pass em all, so it always takes a year longer.

So'll have my masters degree at age 29, I want to move to America my country sucks, too much work here

Yeah here it's kinda similar, high school ends at 19 and you basically can't skip grades even if you're really good. Plus, professors still think that university should be an elite institution, thus they always set the number of people that will pass an exam at around 30-40 %, thus you rarely manage to pass all of them at the right time. Thank god though I wasn't forced to enter the army (I was born one year late).

Also, I think the above-mentioned guy is ESTJ, and while ESTJs can be great, in this sort of scenario I think it exacerbates all those power/control/awareness of social class/reverse snobbery tendencies.

Just for the record, I come from a family which I guess could be considered as lower middle class or working class and did not pay for my university education, but I've always been very intellectual since I was a child. I worked through university to pay my expenses, it wasn't really such a big effort, we're not in the middle ages and most kind of jobs are easy and relaxing...

 

[SilkRoad]

Just for the record, I come from a family which I guess could be considered as lower middle class or working class and did not pay for my university education, but I've always been very intellectual since I was a child. I worked through university to pay my expenses, it wasn't really such a big effort, we're not in the middle ages and most kind of jobs are easy and relaxing...

People are different. Different inclinations by personality, by background, etc...

I certainly don't look down on people who haven't been to uni, it would be very wrong of me considering that I have many friends who are in that category. I think most of my feelings around this subject have to do with people's attitudes, not what they've achieved in terms of education and/or career. I find many things to admire in many different kinds of people. But I can tell you this, I don't like it when people think others are inferior because they have less education, a more "menial" job, or whatever; and I also don't like it when people with less education than me, a more "menial" job etc think that *I* am looking down on them, or I'm an intellectual who doesn't live in the real world, or I'm spoiled, or that desk jobs aren't an honest days work like manual labour (I have actually heard people say this crap.)

In general I certainly do admire people who have made things happen for themselves, as I admit I am not great with that. I am very much a product of my family in a lot of ways (though different from them in others), so it's hard for me to picture what I would be like if I came from a background with (for instance) little interest in culture and not much money. But I admit I am not naturally all that motivated unless it is something I'm really passionate about (and I do have a lot of passions...)

 

[Qlip]

So, basically everything on this thread points to a degree as an indicator of an intellegence of probably at least average, depending on educational system and degree. And I'll argue that not having a degree indicates nothing at all as far as intellegence is concerned.

I consider myself traditionally intelligent. I'm quite sure I would've been able to achieve a computer science degree, or maybe engineering degree, which is what I would've done if I had some better beginnings. What I did is dropped out of High School at 16, got my GED immediately then got a two year technical degree, and have been working as a computer programmer since I was 19. I *could* go back to school, but honestly, I'd rather just do things that I'm interested in on my own time. I don't like to define myself by the way I happen to earn money, and I'm not excited at all at having to sit through a bunch of classess that are besides the point of what I'm interested it. And I don't feel socially, intellectually, or in anyway less of a person because of my education level.

 

[Xyk]

I figure I'll post something a little more useful in addition to jokes.

I started college (university) just last week. After a quick hurdle with chicken pox, I finally went to my first class where I learned stuff yesterday. It was awesome. I now know so much more about the ancient Somerian civilization. I really think four years of college is going to be quite enjoyable and rewarding. I don't think I would educate myself this thoroughly without going to college. In that regard, I would not have been as knowledgeable, or probably as intelligent without going through college and coming out with a degree.

 

[tinkerbell]

The people you know getting a PhD not planning to teach, what are they planning to do? I agree it's a lot of money to spend on something you're just interested in, with little practical purpose!

Lots of professions have PHDs engineers, Marketing, research, economics,civil service, strategy consulting is full of them etc. lots of intellectual roles.

I've worked with loads of phds some better than others - are they way ahead of the rest... a bit but not much.