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  1. #21
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    "However, there is an aspect to an actual credentile that can not be overlooked - its the demonstrated ability to manage one's time, do that which one may not be all that enthusiastic about and actually complete a project."

    Maybe for yourself it cannot be overlooked, but as I quite clearly stated in the above, it (concerning myself) can and is overlooked.
    Then you are making an analytical error. That is part of that process of getting a degree. The fact that you overlook it does not mean that value does not in fact exist.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  2. #22
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    I feel there is a correlation between a college degree and intelligence. Is it the total deciding factor between me thinking you are smart or a dumbass? No. But it matters, I won't deny that.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  3. #23
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    I ask, have you ever been in a college class? There are a bunch of idiots in those tuition-ed rooms. Me included. A degree doesn't tell me anything more than you have endurance. For all I know, you cheated those four or so years - or worse, barely passed trying your best. Now, keep this within reason, because I'm talking about a Bachelors degree. The American education system weeds out bums at a certain point, whether financially or mentally, and PhD are telling. But have you ever had a dentist who ruined your teeth? Yeah, exactly.
    Outside the more elite institutions one can indeed find a collection of howler monkeys in any given class room. That has something to do with maturity and the spirit of the age but it also does have something to do with the American system of extending the chance of a college education as broadly as possible.

    In your typical "ESU" on the undergraduate level particularly the student does tend to get out of it about what they put in. Which is to say by hard work and attention one can get a pretty good education at large mid ranked schools. On the other hand you can essentially be a drunken idiot for four (or five or six) years and eventually get a sheepskin. In what? That is another matter. In my view that 2.5 student who spent 5 years getting a degree in "business" and ended up in the State Farm office might well have been better served going straight there to begin with. That was, of course, their decision. On the other hand... I have a colleague who came from a jerk water town in the Ohio Valley and busted his hump as an undergrad in a football factory school and did well enough to go on and get his PhD at Stanford. I’d be willing to bet he puts a pretty high value on his diploma.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  4. #24
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    Then you are making an analytical error. That is part of that process of getting a degree. The fact that you overlook it does not mean that value does not in fact exist.
    Who said it doesn't exist? Just because one has a degree does not mean one has the ability to manage one's time.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  5. #25
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I feel there is a correlation between a college degree and intelligence. Is it the total deciding factor between me thinking you are smart or a dumbass? No. But it matters, I won't deny that.
    It is what is known in the intelligence business as an "indicator". Not definitive in and of itself - but suggestive.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  6. #26
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5231311252 View Post
    Who said it doesn't exist? Just because one has a degree does not mean one has the ability to manage one's time.
    Hrm... confusing. It appears that the first part of your post suggests that it does exist. But the last part seems to contradict.

    Moreover, I clearly said "the demonstrated ability to manage one's time" and to the extent that one has to show and complete work on time for a period of apx. four years is true enough. Which in no way suggests that they will forever after actually do so – but that is another matter.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  7. #27
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Unless you want to study natural sciences (which may require some use of expensive instruments), attending a university is no longer necessary to be educated. I also find that autodidacts are usually more interesting people. So, while education and intelligence do matter, an academic degree or education does not.

  8. #28
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Hrm... confusing. It appears that the first part of your post suggests that it does exist. But the last part seems to contradict.
    I'm almost willing to say that value is relative in all situations, but then I have to consider vital substances like water. In my first post I stated why I was attending university and IMO it denotes that society or job offering corporations value degrees. Even stating that degrees are overpriced pieces of toilet paper could denote that it has value. However I am not anyone else, so when a question is asked of what I think on a subject I am going to answer accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimrckhnd View Post
    Moreover, I clearly said "the demonstrated ability to manage one's time" and to the extent that one has to show and complete work on time for a period of apx. four years is true enough. Which in no way suggests that they will forever after actually do so – but that is another matter.
    Yes and I clearly saw that, but it does not mean they had the ability to manage their time. I know all too well that one can not have the ability to manage their time and pass either not showing any work at all or not completing it. Then again, the definition of "managing" one's time is often subjective.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  9. #29
    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Unless you want to study natural sciences (which may require some use of expensive instruments), attending a university is no longer necessary to be educated. I also find that autodidacts are usually more interesting people. So, while education and intelligence do matter, an academic degree or education does not.
    I concur with your opinion re; natural sciences. In the relatively recent past it was mostly men of wealth and leisure that could conduct sustained research. The financial requirements have not gone down since then, if anything, they have gone up. While I'm all for self study (I do alot of it myself both in area and out of area) you simply can't teach yourself how run a mass spec unless you own one (and even then for technical reasons relating to standards you probably can't) and those aren't cheap instruments to buy, run and maintain. The increasingly interdisciplinary nature of research just adds to the complexity. And no amount of self study can substitute for interacting with your peers - you simply gain insights from them that are not really possible flying solo.

    I'd also like to point out that learning things on your own is more likely to result in knowledge gaps (often it is hard to know what you don't know) and may not be as efficient as formal training. For those who claim that classes are not an efficient way to provide knowledge I'd suggest that 1) they have progressed past what formal training can offer - in which case they shouldn't be doing it or a budding Einstein, 2) they are not taking advantage of what the class has to offer or 3) they are taking crappy classes.

    I'd extend your observation past the natural sciences and into large segments of engineering, materials science, and even some mathematics.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  10. #30
    Member foxonstilts's Avatar
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    Degree =/= Intelligence.
    Degree=/=Work Ability/Ethic.

    You can be as smart as you want, but if you want a degree, you (generally, I'd hate for people to pipe in with their "ACTUALLY MINE WAS SUPER EASY NEVER WROTE A PAPER" stories) have to work for it. If you're smart, it makes it easier, yes, but you still have to do some work. If you're not smart, you have to work even harder. I know plenty of brilliant people who flunked out of college because they couldn't apply themselves and others who are as dumb as a rock and yet still manage to graduate with a top degree.

    That's why companies hire people with degrees, even if they're in a completely different field. It shows that you can commit to something and work hard for x number of years, and those skills are valuable in any field.

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