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[NT] Social Deviance and NT's

INTPness

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Social deviance is often defined as a violation of "social norms". If we see Fe as wanting to "conform" to social norms, does that indicate that Fi users would be more prone to social deviance? I personally don't think so, but I'm curious as to what others think.

I'm also curious as to what traits you see in other NT's that could be considered social deviance. We could throw this whole thread out the window and just say, "Social deviance isn't type related, it's simply an individual thing", but I'm interested in what common themes you may have experienced with the 4 NT types that would indicate that people of that type could be seen as a deviant.

Could you see a lot of people of your type doing things that would cause them to end up in prison for life? What forms of deviance would a young, immature version of your type be in danger of? INTx's: Detachment from the world with underdeveloped F and underdeveloped empathy? ENTJ's: running semi-large underground operations to make extra money to get through college? ENTP's? If you had to guess, would you say there are certain types that are over-represented in prisons?
 
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ReflecTcelfeR

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I think social deviance is too action oriented. In other words to be a deviant you have to do an unapproved action. Fi could just as well believe that murder or theft, or cheating as wrong and avoid doing it. I think deviance is a complete lack of either Fe or Fi, if not a complete lack of both.
 

Fluffywolf

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Social defiance generally neglects any feeling in my opinion, like Reflect said.

The NT kind of 'social defiance' I think you mean stems rather from an innate need to reach conclusions based on self formed arguements, rather than conforming to the norm without question, which may seem like defiance. Which is a misuse of what real social defiance is. NT's aren't social defiant, they are just not social conformists.

Actual social defiance isn't different between any of the types, it is just a misuse or neglect of cognative abilities that can be seen in any type. Where this misuse or neglect comes from can be chalked up to many things such as upbringing, mental illnesses, social environments, etc. But I also think people can be socially defiant, not because they are mentally ill or have a bad upbringing or any of the sort, but because they ran out of options.

If you were about to starve and the only way you can get fed is to resort to thievery because there aren't enough natural sources around available to you and something as important as food is goods of the financial system in which you can't find your place because of lack of employment for example. You no doubt would resort to thievery. I would. It wouldn't make me mentally ill, it just means I am a victim of my environment. And social defiance is simply a struggle for survival.

That in mind, I am a capable person because I am taught well. But what if someone isnt taught well, they have chances available to them but they don't make use of them because they don't know how to, and so they turn to socially defiant ways, is it their fault? Or is it the fault of the system not giving them a chance in the first place?

Anyway, I cut a heavy subject there and am going offtopic, but I think I've made my point clear. :p
 

Coriolis

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To the OP: are you equating social deviance with breaking the law?

To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.

To Fluffywolf: I'm not sure deviance requires an absence of feeling(s). The OP suggested that Fi-users might be more prone to deviant behavior. This would suggest they are not devoid of feeling, they just put their own internal feeling over external requirements and values.
 

INTPness

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Social defiance generally neglects any feeling in my opinion, like Reflect said.

The NT kind of 'social defiance' I think you mean stems rather from an innate need to reach conclusions based on self formed arguements, rather than conforming to the norm without question, which may seem like defiance. Which is a misuse of what real social defiance is. NT's aren't social defiant, they are just not social conformists.

Actual social defiance isn't different between any of the types, it is just a misuse or neglect of cognative abilities that can be seen in any type. Where this misuse or neglect comes from can be chalked up to many things such as upbringing, mental illnesses, social environments, etc. But I also think people can be socially defiant, not because they are mentally ill or have a bad upbringing or any of the sort, but because they ran out of options.

If you were about to starve and the only way you can get fed is to resort to thievery because there aren't enough natural sources around available to you and something as important as food is goods of the financial system in which you can't find your place because of lack of employment for example. You no doubt would resort to thievery. I would. It wouldn't make me mentally ill, it just means I am a victim of my environment. And social defiance is simply a struggle for survival.

That in mind, I am a capable person because I am taught well. But what if someone isnt taught well, they have chances available to them but they don't make use of them because they don't know how to, and so they turn to socially defiant ways, is it their fault? Or is it the fault of the system not giving them a chance in the first place?

Anyway, I cut a heavy subject there and am going offtopic, but I think I've made my point clear. :p



To the OP: are you equating social deviance with breaking the law?

To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.

To Fluffywolf: I'm not sure deviance requires an absence of feeling(s). The OP suggested that Fi-users might be more prone to deviant behavior. This would suggest they are not devoid of feeling, they just put their own internal feeling over external requirements and values.

Fluffy: Social "deviance", not defiance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviance_(sociology)

Coriolis: Breaking the law is just one type of deviance, but it's an important type as it ends up with people losing their freedom and going to jail/prison. Within the extreme acts of deviance that result in long jail/prison sentences, how do you see the different NT types fitting in to that group? Do you think that NT's might be over-represented in prisons (higher proportion than they are in the regular population)? Or maybe less represented in prisons? What might make young, immature NT's prone to extreme acts of deviance, if anything?
 

Coriolis

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I would think at least NTJs would be too goal-oriented to land in prison, unless they are so arrogant as to think they will never get caught (which some are). For me, there would be a cost-benefit analysis: is the action that violates the law so important to what I want to accomplish that I am willing to risk the loss of my freedom, including loss of future accomplishment?
 
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ReflecTcelfeR

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To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.

That would be a lack of Fe... We could couple that with Si if we wanted, but that adds another cultural layer to the problem.
 

INTPness

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I would think at least NTJs would be too goal-oriented to land in prison, unless they are so arrogant as to think they will never get caught (which some are). For me, there would be a cost-benefit analysis: is the action that violates the law so important to what I want to accomplish that I am willing to risk the loss of my freedom, including loss of future accomplishment?

OK, this is kind of what I was getting at. I'm not sure how old you are, but you say that you would do a cost-benefit analysis and that NTJ's are usually goal-driven. But, when you were young - like say 18-ish, were you more impulsive and less goal-oriented? Could you see younger NTJ's (or NTP's) being more prone to these acts?

Also, what might cause guys like Ted Bundy, Manson, this guy in Norway, the infamous Adolf, and many others who write lengthy manifestos and all this garbage, etc, to be very extreme deviants? Is there some common thread in NT's, or INT's? Does intelligence make extreme deviance more likely? Or detachment from reality? Or social isolation? Or are they just nutcases who went off the deep end?

I'm reminded of a great-uncle of mine who played a very important role in the development of computers, etc - he was very intelligent and made some significant contributions to his field - yet, near the end of his life he was seen living in the bushes near an old set of railroad tracks and not giving a flip about humanity? What's the common thread, if any?
 

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I guess many NTs would approach this more or less like Yuri Orlov, from the movie Lord of War. He was an arms dealer and already had all he needed. But he couldn't stop doing what he did. When asked why he kept risking his life and helping people kill each other he just answered ''Because I'm good at it!''.
That said, I can see INTXs becoming compulsive hackers, with no boundaries. I can see an INTJ leading a gang, but not an INTP. Not only Ti+Ne are bad leading tools, but, ime INTPs are too self preservationists to put themselves in this kind of scenarios. INTJs also are, but on their case it could be overcome by an unhealthy need to outsmart the world. :D
 

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lol, language barrier I guess. :p
 

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Yeah, no worries, I figured that. Deviance, as in deviating from the mean, standard deviations, "you little DEVIANT!!!", etc. :D

Hehe, I thought the topic was too assumptious (whilest ironically it was me that made the wrong assumption), but it makes a lot more sense now. :p
 

dala

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This reminds me of a conversation I had with an ESFJ friend about tradition. He believed it was important in and of itself, adding 'flavor' to life. I asked him what the hell 'flavor' was, and how that fit into what we were talking about. After a few minutes of this we realized we were speaking different languages, gave up on the topic, and went out to the pub.

NTs don't play into tradition for tradition's sake, or respect someone because they're an authority. Instead, they follow traditions that make sense and respect people who they deem worthy of respect. This results in what appears (to an SJ) to be a blatant disregard for social customs, when in fact it is the complete opposite, the result of careful deconstruction and contemplation of those customs. Of course, this isn't always the case (some NT's are just assholes, and others are thoroughly indoctrinated into the culture), but you find this a lot in so-called 'social deviants.'

Bundy, Manson, etc, were psychopaths (they lacked both the ability to empathize and a normal fear response). NTs can (generally) empathize just fine, and often do, but they make decisions based on things like facts and logic. Why? Because it makes more sense (IMO). For instance, you can know that firing someone will make them sad, and feel for them, but still make your decision to fire them solely based on their work performance.
 

INTPness

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This reminds me of a conversation I had with an ESFJ friend about tradition. He believed it was important in and of itself, adding 'flavor' to life. I asked him what the hell 'flavor' was, and how that fit into what we were talking about. After a few minutes of this we realized we were speaking different languages, gave up on the topic, and went out to the pub.

NTs don't play into tradition for tradition's sake, or respect someone because they're an authority. Instead, they follow traditions that make sense and respect people who they deem worthy of respect. This results in what appears (to an SJ) to be a blatant disregard for social customs, when in fact it is the complete opposite, the result of careful deconstruction and contemplation of those customs. Of course, this isn't always the case (some NT's are just assholes, and others are thoroughly indoctrinated into the culture), but you find this a lot in so-called 'social deviants.'

Bundy, Manson, etc, were psychopaths (they lacked both the ability to empathize and a normal fear response). NTs can (generally) empathize just fine, and often do, but they make decisions based on things like facts and logic. Why? Because it makes more sense (IMO). For instance, you can know that firing someone will make them sad, and feel for them, but still make your decision to fire them solely based on their work performance.

Do you think this tendency to "carefully deconstruct social norms" can be taken too far (to an extreme), to the point that it strips one of their ability to empathize with other people and with social norms and to have a normal fear response? In other words, did these guys' deconstruction of social norms (to an extreme degree) play a role in them becoming psychopaths?
 

dala

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Do you think this tendency to "carefully deconstruct social norms" can be taken too far (to an extreme), to the point that it strips one of their ability to empathize with other people and with social norms and to have a normal fear response? In other words, did these guys' deconstruction of social norms (to an extreme degree) play a role in them becoming psychopaths?

There's no evidence that this is the case. The most recent research on the subject suggests that psychopathy is at least partially caused by a lack of maternal warmth/care, resulting in a deep-seated sense of hostility and distrust at a very young age (before two). The psychopathic brain actually becomes wired differently before it forms the ability to behave rationally or deconstruct anything. I also have not seen any evidence that NT personalities are more prone to psychopathy than other types, although this is entirely possible.
 

Coriolis

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OK, this is kind of what I was getting at. I'm not sure how old you are, but you say that you would do a cost-benefit analysis and that NTJ's are usually goal-driven. But, when you were young - like say 18-ish, were you more impulsive and less goal-oriented? Could you see younger NTJ's (or NTP's) being more prone to these acts?

Also, what might cause guys like Ted Bundy, Manson, this guy in Norway, the infamous Adolf, and many others who write lengthy manifestos and all this garbage, etc, to be very extreme deviants? Is there some common thread in NT's, or INT's? Does intelligence make extreme deviance more likely? Or detachment from reality? Or social isolation? Or are they just nutcases who went off the deep end?
I personally was not more impulsive as a teen; I felt I had too much at stake, too many plans to take stupid risks. If anything, I give in to impulses more now (though generally harmless ones), because my personal, professional, and financial security is established.

As for Ted Bundy, et. al., I have been wondering myself lately whether they are even INTJ as they are often considered. Their actions do nothing to further their goals, and in some cases, even work against them. It seems more Fi-fueled than anything else. Perhaps they are really INFJs. In any case they have some pathology or other, and MBTI is meant to describe generally healthy individuals.

I would not agree, then, that NTs or INTs are overrepresented in the prison population. I would agree that they are more likely to disregard social norms in less extreme ways.
 

Jessica

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ENTJs sound the most likely to end up in prisons, but they would represent a lower populace than most because they can be pretty cunning about what they do. In an odd twist, the OP's example of an ENTJ running an underground business to make it through college is exactly what the only ENTJ I know is doing. He's selling weed, and a lot of it, and growing weed, a lot of it. He's probably considered a high-level distributor during college months. He could take in as much as he wanted, but he kind of keeps it down low to be safer.

INTJs and INTPs are more likely to do illegal things, i.e. drugs, underaged drinking, and more likely to fall into habits of addiction and self-destruction. This is experience talking: I have a lot of experience with both INTs.

INTJs being more likely than INTPs to go to jail, as they tend to be more unintentionally rash or be more confident in half-baked plots.

ENTPs tend to, oddly enough, be the mostly-good types. I've never known any ENTPs to act overly risky or do too many things that could get them in deep shit. Maybe the ENTPs I know are just douches. They also seem to have a penchant for ratting on others, rarely unintentional.
 

INTPness

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Yeah, I have known 2 ENTJ's who did that sort of thing - that's why I mentioned it. One did the same thing that you mention - but this was way back in high school. In high school, he was dealing with and partnering with adults. He actually had a pretty large operation in the school (very big school) and outside of it - to the point to where he had several people "working for him" and he was no longer in a position where he could get caught. If anyone was going to get caught, it was his underlings - he was just overseeing the whole thing. I became friends with him, not knowing any of it, and he eventually trusted me and started showing me how it was all layed out and wanted me to get involved because "I was smart and could make a killing".

Another ENTJ I know was doing some similar things while in law school - and making big bucks. Got caught and got put away for like 7 years. He's now a very successful attorney.

But, ENTJ's are very successful when they stay on the good side of things too. These examples are just misdirected energy/trying to take shortcuts to reach their goals. I'd say if anyone was going to run the mob or stuff like that, it's probably a misdirected/evil ENTJ who is best cut out for it.

But, the misdirected/evil INTx's are probably the guys writing 1,500 page manifestos, coming up with grand strategies, and going on these big shooting sprees and "carrying out their agenda", etc.
 
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