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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Default Social Deviance and NT's

    Social deviance is often defined as a violation of "social norms". If we see Fe as wanting to "conform" to social norms, does that indicate that Fi users would be more prone to social deviance? I personally don't think so, but I'm curious as to what others think.

    I'm also curious as to what traits you see in other NT's that could be considered social deviance. We could throw this whole thread out the window and just say, "Social deviance isn't type related, it's simply an individual thing", but I'm interested in what common themes you may have experienced with the 4 NT types that would indicate that people of that type could be seen as a deviant.

    Could you see a lot of people of your type doing things that would cause them to end up in prison for life? What forms of deviance would a young, immature version of your type be in danger of? INTx's: Detachment from the world with underdeveloped F and underdeveloped empathy? ENTJ's: running semi-large underground operations to make extra money to get through college? ENTP's? If you had to guess, would you say there are certain types that are over-represented in prisons?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


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  2. #2
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I think social deviance is too action oriented. In other words to be a deviant you have to do an unapproved action. Fi could just as well believe that murder or theft, or cheating as wrong and avoid doing it. I think deviance is a complete lack of either Fe or Fi, if not a complete lack of both.

  3. #3
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Social defiance generally neglects any feeling in my opinion, like Reflect said.

    The NT kind of 'social defiance' I think you mean stems rather from an innate need to reach conclusions based on self formed arguements, rather than conforming to the norm without question, which may seem like defiance. Which is a misuse of what real social defiance is. NT's aren't social defiant, they are just not social conformists.

    Actual social defiance isn't different between any of the types, it is just a misuse or neglect of cognative abilities that can be seen in any type. Where this misuse or neglect comes from can be chalked up to many things such as upbringing, mental illnesses, social environments, etc. But I also think people can be socially defiant, not because they are mentally ill or have a bad upbringing or any of the sort, but because they ran out of options.

    If you were about to starve and the only way you can get fed is to resort to thievery because there aren't enough natural sources around available to you and something as important as food is goods of the financial system in which you can't find your place because of lack of employment for example. You no doubt would resort to thievery. I would. It wouldn't make me mentally ill, it just means I am a victim of my environment. And social defiance is simply a struggle for survival.

    That in mind, I am a capable person because I am taught well. But what if someone isnt taught well, they have chances available to them but they don't make use of them because they don't know how to, and so they turn to socially defiant ways, is it their fault? Or is it the fault of the system not giving them a chance in the first place?

    Anyway, I cut a heavy subject there and am going offtopic, but I think I've made my point clear. :P
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  4. #4
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    To the OP: are you equating social deviance with breaking the law?

    To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.

    To Fluffywolf: I'm not sure deviance requires an absence of feeling(s). The OP suggested that Fi-users might be more prone to deviant behavior. This would suggest they are not devoid of feeling, they just put their own internal feeling over external requirements and values.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Social defiance generally neglects any feeling in my opinion, like Reflect said.

    The NT kind of 'social defiance' I think you mean stems rather from an innate need to reach conclusions based on self formed arguements, rather than conforming to the norm without question, which may seem like defiance. Which is a misuse of what real social defiance is. NT's aren't social defiant, they are just not social conformists.

    Actual social defiance isn't different between any of the types, it is just a misuse or neglect of cognative abilities that can be seen in any type. Where this misuse or neglect comes from can be chalked up to many things such as upbringing, mental illnesses, social environments, etc. But I also think people can be socially defiant, not because they are mentally ill or have a bad upbringing or any of the sort, but because they ran out of options.

    If you were about to starve and the only way you can get fed is to resort to thievery because there aren't enough natural sources around available to you and something as important as food is goods of the financial system in which you can't find your place because of lack of employment for example. You no doubt would resort to thievery. I would. It wouldn't make me mentally ill, it just means I am a victim of my environment. And social defiance is simply a struggle for survival.

    That in mind, I am a capable person because I am taught well. But what if someone isnt taught well, they have chances available to them but they don't make use of them because they don't know how to, and so they turn to socially defiant ways, is it their fault? Or is it the fault of the system not giving them a chance in the first place?

    Anyway, I cut a heavy subject there and am going offtopic, but I think I've made my point clear. :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To the OP: are you equating social deviance with breaking the law?

    To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.

    To Fluffywolf: I'm not sure deviance requires an absence of feeling(s). The OP suggested that Fi-users might be more prone to deviant behavior. This would suggest they are not devoid of feeling, they just put their own internal feeling over external requirements and values.
    Fluffy: Social "deviance", not defiance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deviance_(sociology)

    Coriolis: Breaking the law is just one type of deviance, but it's an important type as it ends up with people losing their freedom and going to jail/prison. Within the extreme acts of deviance that result in long jail/prison sentences, how do you see the different NT types fitting in to that group? Do you think that NT's might be over-represented in prisons (higher proportion than they are in the regular population)? Or maybe less represented in prisons? What might make young, immature NT's prone to extreme acts of deviance, if anything?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #6
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I would think at least NTJs would be too goal-oriented to land in prison, unless they are so arrogant as to think they will never get caught (which some are). For me, there would be a cost-benefit analysis: is the action that violates the law so important to what I want to accomplish that I am willing to risk the loss of my freedom, including loss of future accomplishment?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #7
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    NTs, socially deviant? Wut? This is shocking!

  8. #8
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To Reflect: you can be deviant by failing to do a required or customary action.
    That would be a lack of Fe... We could couple that with Si if we wanted, but that adds another cultural layer to the problem.

  9. #9
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I would think at least NTJs would be too goal-oriented to land in prison, unless they are so arrogant as to think they will never get caught (which some are). For me, there would be a cost-benefit analysis: is the action that violates the law so important to what I want to accomplish that I am willing to risk the loss of my freedom, including loss of future accomplishment?
    OK, this is kind of what I was getting at. I'm not sure how old you are, but you say that you would do a cost-benefit analysis and that NTJ's are usually goal-driven. But, when you were young - like say 18-ish, were you more impulsive and less goal-oriented? Could you see younger NTJ's (or NTP's) being more prone to these acts?

    Also, what might cause guys like Ted Bundy, Manson, this guy in Norway, the infamous Adolf, and many others who write lengthy manifestos and all this garbage, etc, to be very extreme deviants? Is there some common thread in NT's, or INT's? Does intelligence make extreme deviance more likely? Or detachment from reality? Or social isolation? Or are they just nutcases who went off the deep end?

    I'm reminded of a great-uncle of mine who played a very important role in the development of computers, etc - he was very intelligent and made some significant contributions to his field - yet, near the end of his life he was seen living in the bushes near an old set of railroad tracks and not giving a flip about humanity? What's the common thread, if any?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #10
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    I guess many NTs would approach this more or less like Yuri Orlov, from the movie Lord of War. He was an arms dealer and already had all he needed. But he couldn't stop doing what he did. When asked why he kept risking his life and helping people kill each other he just answered ''Because I'm good at it!''.

    That said, I can see INTXs becoming compulsive hackers, with no boundaries. I can see an INTJ leading a gang, but not an INTP. Not only Ti+Ne are bad leading tools, but, ime INTPs are too self preservationists to put themselves in this kind of scenarios. INTJs also are, but on their case it could be overcome by an unhealthy need to outsmart the world.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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