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Thread: ENxP - T or F?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ce putain du grammaire, c'est horrible.

    Oui, je dinnae parlez vous cést francais. Cést merde. Repeatevue parlez Eccosse?

  2. #22
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    je navais jamais prevu cette discussion! as for m. nico penseur, i still say ENTP.

    have you gotten into function theory yet? ENTP will associate more with:

    Introverted Thinking (Ti) -
    Quote Originally Posted by van der hoop
    The introvert of thinking-type also takes his systematized experience as his guide; but here the emphasis falls on the inner aspect, thus on the need for objective order and on laws and principles, according to which experience is generally systematized. Abstraction of that part of conscious experience which is revealed as constant and subject to general rules is regarded by the introverted thinker as something of vital significance. He tries to arrange the opinions which he takes over from others in a system of his own. In doing so, he will take up a more critical attitude in regard to the thought-material which he is taught than do extraverted thinkers, and his aim is to follow the guidance of his own opinions and convictions. In consequence, we find a most careful working-over of his own experience, but a tendency to leave out of his reckoning facts and points of view which are not known to him. While the strength of the extraverted thinker lies in his easy application of systematized knowledge, the introverted thinker is particularly good at comparing systems and principles. He feels at home among abstractions, and there are many fine shades of meaning in the world of his ideas. Also, as he is more skilled in introspection, he is better able to examine mental facts than is the extraverted psychologist. Hence we see here a living contact with ideas, and subtle reflection and consideration [...]
    Extraverted Feeling (Fe) -
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    Fe is not about social niceties. It's about understanding how each person's individual actions impact the group. This information can be wielded in positive or negative ways, depending on the maturity and inclination of the individual. [...] the Fe user may be more inclined to [...] understand what kind of reaction their actions may end up provoking and weigh the consequences. [...] Therefore the method in which the message is conveyed is just as important as the message itself if it is going to be well-received and acted upon.
    -

    whereas ENFP:

    Introverted Feeling (Fi) -
    Quote Originally Posted by van der hoop
    The introvert of feeling-type finds support and guidance by shaping his own feeling-attitudes in accordance with an inner ideal. Here the activities of feeling are hidden, and from the outside there is, as a rule, little to tell us that we are dealing with a person of feeling-type. Feeling aims more especially at an inner harmony, trying to discover what under various circumstances should be the right relationships between people if life is to be beautiful and well balanced. Reality, however, reveals in most cases that this ideal is not attained, and introverted feeling is particularly vulnerable in regard to such experiences. This vulnerability — which may become as intense at that of the sensitive plant — is one of the most characteristic peculiarities of this type. Just as with the introvert of thinking-type, we find here, too, a marked contrast between inner security on the one hand, and uncertainty in external behavior on the other. But whereas with the introverted thinker this opposition gives rise to thought concerning the problems of life, with the individual of feeling-type it leads to deep feeling, and to a strange mixture of inner tenderness and passionate conviction.
    Extraverted Thinking (Te) -
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey
    Compared to Ti, which is focused on specifications in the internal world, Te is focused on efficiency in the outer world, and those using it may 'gloss over' details or ignore fine points in order to achieve a result.
    -

    your interest in great thinkers in particular seems more Ti to me.

    as does this:
    Justice and fair play are important to me, as are honesty and intellectual integrity.

  3. #23
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Oui, je dinnae parlez vous cést francais. Cést merde. Repeatevue parlez Eccosse?
    Nae.

  4. #24
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Techniquement non pas M. penseur
    Eh bien, je pense que c'est possible. (C'est Madame Penseur ici. )


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Ce putain du grammaire, c'est horrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Oui, je dinnae parlez vous cést francais. Cést merde. Repeatevue parlez Eccosse?
    Mon Dieu, qu'ai-je fait?

    (I cheated on that last one with this: http://translate.google.com/#en|fr|)


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    je navais jamais prevu cette discussion! as for m. nico penseur, i still say ENTP.

    have you gotten into function theory yet? ENTP will associate more with:

    Introverted Thinking (Ti) -
    Extraverted Feeling (Fe) -
    Nice quotes, thanks!

    OK, so I'm going to think out loud about how I think I use the functions, and maybe you guys can help me out. Since the new guy seems to think similarly in some ways, maybe this will help him, too.

    First, the ENTP descriptions describe me very accurately, although I am stronger on the NP preferences and closer to the middle on the E and T preferences. My dad was the one who gave me a professional MBTI test when he took it for work, and he howled with laughter when he read the ENTP description, saying they'd written it based on me. However, I do also have some traits that are a bit like ENFP, and would happily claim that title if I thought I was one, since I happen to think ENFPs are pretty awesome.

    Functions: I'm pretty sure I use NeTi in almost every situation, backed up by other functions, depending on the situation:
    I use Fe when socializing or thinking about how to say something tactfully; Te at work when thinking about the most efficient way to do things; Si at work when looking through the details to find what is important; Fi when thinking about my life purpose and what I want to do next, or when thinking about something I'm opposed to because it seems wrong; and Se when I'm letting loose and having a good time. I probably use Ni in there somewhere, too, but I don't understand it well enough to say when. (Recent discussions about the differences between Ne and Ni have given me a better idea of why some people give super long explanations and rarely sum things up, though.)

    So, would you agree that the functions are used according to situational context as appropriate, rather than in a rigidly prescribed order of development?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Nae.
    Boff, grandé.

  6. #26
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redcheerio View Post
    Eh bien, je pense que c'est possible. (C'est Madame Penseur ici. )

    Mon Dieu, qu'ai-je fait?

    (I cheated on that last one with this: http://translate.google.com/#en|fr|)
    French is probably the worst language to machine translate, mainly because its grammar doesn't do anything that it's "supposed to". Also, it doesn't work like English in a lot of ways (just got done reading a book on, in part, French grammar, of all things)

    So it wouldn't be "C'est Madame Penseur ici", it would simply be "Je suis Madame Penseuse." This is one of those things that English is weird about. All Romance languages say "I am (description)" where we would say "it's (description of oneself) here."

    Instead of "je pense que c'est possible," you'd just say "peut-être" or if you wanted to be fancy, "peut-être avez-vous raison." "qu'ai-je fait" is about as clunky as it looks - "Qu'est-ce (que) j'ai fait?" works much better.

    And everyone who's been around a native speaker knows that where one might say "mon dieu" in a movie, you throw in as many instances of "putain" as you think you can get away with.

    Nice quotes, thanks!

    OK, so I'm going to think out loud about how I think I use the functions, and maybe you guys can help me out. Since the new guy seems to think similarly in some ways, maybe this will help him, too.

    First, the ENTP descriptions describe me very accurately, although I am stronger on the NP preferences and closer to the middle on the E and T preferences. My dad was the one who gave me a professional MBTI test when he took it for work, and he howled with laughter when he read the ENTP description, saying they'd written it based on me. However, I do also have some traits that are a bit like ENFP, and would happily claim that title if I thought I was one, since I happen to think ENFPs are pretty awesome.
    OK...

    Functions: I'm pretty sure I use NeTi in almost every situation, backed up by other functions, depending on the situation:
    I use Fe when socializing or thinking about how to say something tactfully; Te at work when thinking about the most efficient way to do things; Si at work when looking through the details to find what is important; Fi when thinking about my life purpose and what I want to do next, or when thinking about something I'm opposed to because it seems wrong; and Se when I'm letting loose and having a good time. I probably use Ni in there somewhere, too, but I don't understand it well enough to say when. (Recent discussions about the differences between Ne and Ni have given me a better idea of why some people give super long explanations and rarely sum things up, though.)
    Important: you don't use functions. Functions are merely expressions of one's preferences in engaging the world without, and the one within. For example, you don't "use" Fe when you socialize or think about saying something tactfully. Instead, it's a preference for Fe that inclines a person toward acting in ways to enhance social stability and group cohesion, instead of acting in another way. You don't use Te to make things more efficient; rather, a preference for Te inclines a person toward relating to external things through an external source of logic. You don't use Si to pay close attention to detail; rather, a preference for Si inclines a person to consider present sources of sensory data in the context of previously experienced sensory data. You don't use Fi to think about purpose or morality; rather, a preference for Fi inclines a person to take personal ethics, one's sense of authenticity, and the non-material value of things into account when coming to conclusions about things. You don't use Se to party (haha), instead, a preference for Se inclines a person toward living in the moment, placing high priority upon immediate sensory data, and action without deliberation.

    To explain Ni - if you're an Ne dom, think about something, and then think about all the things that you might want to know that relate to that first thing. Come up with that number. Now, imagine that instead, you wanted to comprehend as much information about that first thing to the exclusion of all the other things that you came up with. Instead of latching onto things that are connected to the first thing in some way, to get that amount of information, you have to break the first thing down into the pieces that connect to make the first thing what it is, and understand them fully. Then, you've got to break down those component pieces into their component pieces, and understand those pieces fully. Then you've got to keep repeating the process.

    To analogize, Ne is concerned with galactic clusters and possible multiple universes. Ni is concerned with energy strings and multiple hidden dimensions.

    So, would you agree that the functions are used according to situational context as appropriate, rather than in a rigidly prescribed order of development?
    Not at all. Function preferences will tilt our comfortable response in a given direction. We still have the ability, in many circumstances, to act differently.

    When we say we develop function preferences, we're not talking about cognitive skill. Instead, we're talking about how inclined we are toward acting in accordance with the outlook of that function, and in some theories, what archetypal form that preference takes.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Shoddy name you have there.
    Bahaha...I was waiting for the other Nicodemus to step in with something like this.

    Fight fight fight!

    I want a fight.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicodemus_au View Post
    Allegorystory,

    I'd say that my values are things I've thought through, and continue to think through. Justice and fair play are important to me, as are honesty and intellectual integrity. I don't think that there's absolute good or evil, and would argue that ethics are situational (which horrifies my religious friends). Ends can often justify the means - I'm fascinated by the concept of (although haven't yet committed) altruistic murder. Cruelty is a different matter, though, particularly when directed against the defenceless; I blew my top when people were throwing rocks at my dog, who was lame to begin with. Although I had every justification for becoming angry, I felt ashamed for losing control.

    My father and brother are both very passionate about changing the world and take politics personally - my brother is the social conscience of the family, joins demos, and is doing law to help refugees. I'm pretty apolitical, and don't have any burning desire to build a new heaven and a new earth; I tend to take things as they come, although I'd certainly prefer it if things were fairer. I'm wary of ideologies and isms, because they get in the way of seeing life as it is. As I said, I don't like Post-Modernists or religious fundamentalists (oddly similar in many ways - small-minded and irrational, and seeing their dogma as the only truth), but it's fun to argue with them.
    ENTP. Case closed.

    Just kidding.

    Although! ENTPs tend to enjoy debating with people who they think hold close-minded, limited views on things. Partly because such people can be annoying as fuck and it feels good to knock them down a few pegs, but it's also partly humanitarian: you can do a great service to someone who blindly believes in something by doing some necessary questioning for them.

    Honestly, though it doesn't mean much this stage in the game, you come across as more INTP to me.

    We'd have to get to know you more to be of better service, though. So wander around the forum, make some friends, smell some butts. In the process you may figure it out for yourself.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegorystory View Post
    I want a fight.
    My mere presence will crush the kid. That is what you get for being such a bloodthirsty bystander.

  10. #30

    Default J or P?

    InvisibleJim may have a point - maybe I am a Judger rather than a Perceiver.

    I will make quick decisions. For instance, I went to the shopping centre on Sunday to have a look at computer monitors, compared prices in a few shops, and decided that. since my laptop was on its last legs, it would be cheaper to buy an all-in-one, rather than buying a monitor then and a laptop at a later date.

    I like to get information as soon as possible, and enjoy planning things; I've decided to go travelling towards the end of next year (18 months away), and am already looking at small group tours, and know which ones I want to go on.

    I make lists of things to do and read.

    I also prefer a structured environment (school) to an unstructured one (university). Moving to new cities or schools is difficult, although starting new jobs isn't. I've had contract jobs rather than any fixed job, and I don't like the idea of being tied down to one job forever. I'm in the public service, and don't like being a cog in the machine; I want a position of fame and authority - not in the corporate world, but in the arts or teaching.

    I wanted to be treated as an adult at an early age, and people often said that I was 14 going on 40. Friends' girlfriends are often surprised that I'm the same age; they think I'm a lot older.

    I'm nearly always the one who arranges social activities with my friends - although it tends to be where we should meet and when, rather than details.

    I try to get work done early, if it's interesting. Putting garbage bins out - that can wait. Essay writing, I get stuck into several weeks before the due date, and don't do things at the last minute. Except for editing the History thesis.

    Physical movements: I tend to stride everywhere with great rapidity, and can appear quite determined.

    I am organised about things I consider important - I keep notes on the books I read, and have folders and log books. On the other hand, my room is full of piles of papers, books and CDs, and I can be quite messy.

    I wouldn't describe myself as aggressive - hearty, certainly, although also argumentative and opinionated. At school, most people knew who I was. I had a very healthy ego, although was also self-critical. I was both the class clown and a very high achiever. I had little trouble standing up for myself, and telling people what I thought. I don't pick fights, but I got into several in primary school, and gave as good as I got. I got detention once in Year 3, and a letter was sent to my parents; what I objected to was that I'd been accused of swearing at a teacher (which I hadn't). I quarrelled a lot with my father when growing up, because we can both be very stubborn. I can be very dominating and take control of groups; I was class president in sixth grade (although had a definite J vice-president - she was more practical and implemented my ideas), and was always the kid teachers got to thank visitors. I naturally expected to be the centre of attention, and still don't like being on the sidelines. I was an interesting child, but more than a bit of a handful.

    However, I came down with anxiety in Yr. 11 (the result of my brother having chronic fatigue, the house spending 12 months being knocked down and renovated, and worry about going to university). I lost confidence in myself, and became quite defensive, socially withdrawn and hesitant - to the point where I thought of myself as an introvert. I've felt confined and trapped, because I haven't been in control of my life - I haven't had much money (contract jobs), haven't had enough mental or social stimulation, and don't like having to fit in with my parents. I've had several different very distinct ideas of what I want to do. I've settled on teaching; I started a permanent job yesterday, and will use that as a springboard to save money, go travelling overseas next year, teach English overseas for a while (probably Turkey), do the Dip.Ed. when I return to Australia... So maybe I DO have plans, but haven't had the wherewithal to put them into action.

    I'm very interested in the creative arts; love acting, and have thought of becoming a playwright. (Apparently an ENTJ trait.) In some ways, I identify with Richard Wagner - and various Roman emperors.

    I've also got an extraordinary memory, and can clearly remember (in detail) things that happened to me when I was 4.

    My writing style is very authoritative and forceful, often ironic - my essays make it clear exactly what I think, why, and why Critic A is a knave and a fool, and why Critic B is an incompetent bungler. On the other hand, I'm a compulsive drafter, don't need all the materials to start working, and the essay plan tends to be pretty rough and ready. I'm a natural public speaker, and feel in my element when I'm leading a group discussion.

    And, yes, people complain that I'm being scornful when I'm simply stating my opinion.

    So maybe I am an ENTJ?!

    BUT
    I'm not very practical, my room tends to be very messy (I have too many books for my room, and will regularly reorganise my bookshelves); I will forget to do the mundane things (paying bills, getting things posted), and let other people take care of them; I'm not good at managing money (because I haven't had a permanent job until now) and tend to live beyond my means (although look at Julius Caesar and Wagner).

    I don't think of myself as a punctual person. Often I'll be a good 15 minutes early for appointments; on the other hand, I'll also leave at the last minute. I have more sense of time than my parents (both Js), and am often ready to go long before they are - unless I get sidetracked, and think that a parcel of books is more important than getting to work on time.

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