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  1. #11
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gandalf View Post
    Hi,

    In tests, I score INTx. Reading the type descriptions, there should be no doubt that I am clearly a T.

    Nevertheless, I often find myself considering soft values a lot more than NTs seem to do. Yet I realize that as a contrast to NFs, I rather consider values as something that affect my logical conclusions than as a playground of feelings. Or perhaps I have feelings based on those values and I give those feelings quite a lot of weight in my logical processing.

    This makes me wonder what are the core differences between NTs and NFs when it comes to values. How can it be that in one way see a lot of F in myself while I still think it's the T in me that makes the final decisions. The F effect is most evident when it comes to assumed feelings of other people as reaction to my actions.

    Any thoughts?
    I especially relate to the bolded part. I suppose NTs would 'value' intellectual mastery more than NFs?



    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I limit my own values so I can make myself more efficient. Values often contradict so they only hinder me. Survival is my greatest value.

    In terms of type, values are a matter of likelihood, not certainty. F's are more likely to have more values than T's.
    I'm not sure if F's are more likely to have values than T's. I would think that F's would be more likely to primarily rely on values as a means of decision making.

    I'm not clear on what you mean by values are a matter of likelihood, not certainty. Do you that you don't feel certain as to the validity of your own values or something else?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Fi is related to internal morals and values based on emotion. But I think Ti can also contribute to the creation of internal values and morals but based on 'logic' (bracketed because it's still subjective in nature).

    I have quite some morals, standards, principles and whatnot that I find extremely important for myself. At first I thought it was Fi when I was knew to MBTI and even considered being INFP because of it , on cognative function tests my Fi scored pretty high, but the INFP description just felt off somehow and I didn't really relate, but when I started delving into the MBTI test questions and the reasons I had for giving the answers I gave in contrast to the motivation of the questions themselves (which is a sign of being a Ti dom, ironically). I came to realize my Fi probably isn't all that great after all, and the answers to those Fi based questions were rooted into my own Ti. Plainly put that is.

    Might be the same for you, might not, I don't know. But might be worth looking into so you can find your answers.
    I relate quite a bit to INFP descriptions and still wonder from time to time if INFP is actually a better fit, yet functionwise I don't think I'm a dominant Fi. I'm probably not even an "Fi user."
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  2. #12
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    If you're putting values before logic and facts more or most often in your decision-making, you might want to rethink the T dichotomy. It's not like most F-dichotomy users don't have or use T abilities.

  3. #13
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    I think where NTs and NFs differ is their orientation to their values.

    From what I know, NTs are more impersonal about their values, so they can more easily adopt one value for a while and then change or drop it later on if it no longer makes sense according to their logic. NTs behave according to logical frameworks. So if suddenly a value doesn’t make sense to an NT, they will either change the value to fit in with what’s in their mind or discard it.

    NFs, on the other hand, take a more personal approach, using their values to shape their interactions with the outside world. They are thus less likely to let go of their values since their behavior is often driven by them, based on what they ‘sense’ to be right or wrong for any given experience, situation, idea, etc.

    I can think of many times when I’ve felt strongly about something, but then talk to someone who has a completely different way of looking at it, and changed my values accordingly. When I find that my values are being challenged in a conversation, I find that I try to pose them as arguments rather than personal values or opinions. What I believe is often what I think is to be the “truth” of a situation, or at least the closest to it that I can think of. So if my values are challenged, I have realized that I can still feel passionate and get worked up about it, but I end up reflecting on any new information that comes forth so that I can re-evaluate what I am standing for.

    It would be cool to hear about an NF's experience with values. From interacting with people who are NFs, I've noticed that when they feel strongly about something, hold values, it seems pretty near impossible to get them to change their mind on it. But that's when dealing with conflict. A lot of NF values deal with positive things such as connecting with other people and being helpful. But I think NTs can have the exact same values as NFs, just approach and think about them in a different way.

    Hope I didn't bore you, just got a little excited about thinking about this topic. Thanks for starting the thread

  4. #14
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    People who care about internal morals/values tend to be Fi types, that doesn't mean that Fe types can't or don't, it just seems to be more of a motivating factor for Fi types, question INTJ for yourself.

    Values should be divided by Fi/Fe not T v F, Fi is about an internally driven moral values system, Fe is about a more communal and external driven one.
    Exactly.

  5. #15
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I'm not sure if F's are more likely to have values than T's. I would think that F's would be more likely to primarily rely on values as a means of decision making.
    The more focused you are on your value system(F function) as oppose to your logical system(T function), in terms of decision making, the more pronounced your values are. More reliant on T means less pronounced values. Reaching a certain arbitrary point in your level of preference for T could mean reaching a point wherein your least valued object becomes completely not valued.

    I'm not clear on what you mean by values are a matter of likelihood, not certainty. Do you mean that you don't feel certain as to the validity of your own values or something else?
    No. just saying that different people have different attitudes towards their values. that it's difficult to generalize this aspect of reality.

  6. #16
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    • Honesty/Truthfulness
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by auphix7 View Post
    I think where NTs and NFs differ is their orientation to their values.

    From what I know, NTs are more impersonal about their values, so they can more easily adopt one value for a while and then change or drop it later on if it no longer makes sense according to their logic. NTs behave according to logical frameworks. So if suddenly a value doesn’t make sense to an NT, they will either change the value to fit in with what’s in their mind or discard it.

    NFs, on the other hand, take a more personal approach, using their values to shape their interactions with the outside world. They are thus less likely to let go of their values since their behavior is often driven by them, based on what they ‘sense’ to be right or wrong for any given experience, situation, idea, etc.

    I can think of many times when I’ve felt strongly about something, but then talk to someone who has a completely different way of looking at it, and changed my values accordingly. When I find that my values are being challenged in a conversation, I find that I try to pose them as arguments rather than personal values or opinions. What I believe is often what I think is to be the “truth” of a situation, or at least the closest to it that I can think of. So if my values are challenged, I have realized that I can still feel passionate and get worked up about it, but I end up reflecting on any new information that comes forth so that I can re-evaluate what I am standing for.

    It would be cool to hear about an NF's experience with values. From interacting with people who are NFs, I've noticed that when they feel strongly about something, hold values, it seems pretty near impossible to get them to change their mind on it. But that's when dealing with conflict. A lot of NF values deal with positive things such as connecting with other people and being helpful. But I think NTs can have the exact same values as NFs, just approach and think about them in a different way.

    Hope I didn't bore you, just got a little excited about thinking about this topic. Thanks for starting the thread
    Thanks for very interesting an answer! And as for this thread, you are welcome I'd like to see more of alikes on this forum but it seems that they are more concentrated on the NF area...

    Well, back to the values, then...

    Most of my core values are founded on very strong logical thoughts. Therefore, I guess they are quite T'ish. One reason I am wondering the difference of the T and F might be that I surprisingly often find myself compromising my personal interests in the name of my somewhat non-selfish values.

    I just sometimes feel that what I would be up to do wouldn't be right considering what it might cause to others (and I am talking about some very non-selfish things now, not normal sociability) and even though my logic says that most people just wouldn't care, I can't help caring and I usually end up putting my feelings before the logic. And yet I really don't think I am being too nice in general...

    It would definitely be interesting to read comments from NFs as well.

  8. #18
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auphix7 View Post
    From what I know, NTs are more impersonal about their values, so they can more easily adopt one value for a while and then change or drop it later on if it no longer makes sense according to their logic. NTs behave according to logical frameworks. So if suddenly a value doesn’t make sense to an NT, they will either change the value to fit in with what’s in their mind or discard it.
    Yes. People talk about T and F, values and logic, as if they and their use can be neatly deconvolved from each other. They cannot. Everyone uses every function, and they all work together, sometimes well and sometimes not so well. Logic is a process, while values are inputs to the process, like facts, emotions, ideas, etc. The connection your post makes is that values are sometimes shaped by the application of logic, just as logic is influenced by the application of values. It is all tied together. The importance of each contribution and the manner in which they occur will differ for F and T types, and of course from person to person.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #19
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    Brief thoughts via values and being an NF with Fi (which is what INTJs have):

    • My value system is still subject to logic, but what my "gut" tells me will carry more weight than just plain ole facts.
    • The more "extreme" a situation, the more I will relay primarily on my value system to guide me.
    • My value system has changed enormously in the past few years. Gotta clean house sometime!
    • I feel more comfortable making a less than optimal choice using my intuition than making a choice via just plain logic.

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