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  1. #101
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    This is very interesting.

    I have been crushing HARD on this ENTP 3w4 girl. Absolutely stunning, gorgeous, troll-like, and incredibly intelligent and creative, but also narcissistic, arrogant, and very stubborn. I am risking a lot putting this on a forum, because she sort of got me into MBTI, and I know she frequents PerC (I left because of this) and I'm not entirely sure if she is on this site.

    ANYWAY...I'm pretty certain she knows I'm crushing on her (we see each other this Tuesday, I plan on making a move of some sort), but we "hang out" with the understanding that I get to study her because I find her incredibly fascinating, and in return, I act sort of as her "entertainment" (make her laugh, share funny stories, take her out for drives, listen to music and watch movies with her) ALL while trying to stay out of the friend-zone (exhausting work, but so far, so good. Almost got a kiss in last time, but she had a concussion and I just thought it would be awkward, so I excused myself before she made the move. Those feline ENTP eyes are super tempting).

    ANYWAY.

    She struggles with this idea of femininity. Because she is learned in MBTI, she acts sort of as a chameleon, getting along with everyone and knowing how to talk to people and "get on their level" (I forbade her to be anything other than authentic, ENTP with me). She comes off as 'one of the guys,' isn't much of a 'damsel in distress,' rolls her eyes when a guy calls her "beautiful" or "adorable," as a child barfed at the idea of doing ballet or playing with Barbies, and me, being my (probable) INFJ-self, sometimes like to talk about topics like "love," and she listens with a curiosity, but her reaction is usually "blehhh that sounds terrible to me." I would think she was lesbian if a few months ago she didn't attack me and throw me on her bed (ever since then, it has been a mix of "I can't stand you" and "ughhh when are we going to have sex").

    Anyway, despite looking and sounding like a woman, she is so intelligent and sarcastic that she tends to intimidate guys, myself included. She is an Sx Enneagram variant, and she peppers her speech (at least with me) with sexual tones (the way she looks at me, some sexual jokes, that sort of thing). She isn't "lady-like" at all, but she still manages to remain incredibly classy (the kind of party I imagine her attending in the future is a tux and gown party where they serve the finest champagne and hors d'ouevres).

    One of my favorite discussions I've had with her was regarding my "man-box" and her femininity. She insists I'm an ESxJ, though I know, for certain I am not (way too introverted, my intuition is the only thing I'm certain of, but I do think she has the xJ right). I tried to explain to her how I grew up in a heavy SJ household with two brothers and a domineering father (loving father, but ISTJ with VERY strong Judging preferences...so it was always I HAD to fit in the box he designated for me), and a soft-spoken mother. I've built crazy defense-mechanisms and now, even if I wanted to take them off in public, I couldn't.

    She told me that she feels the same way about femininity. That she feels like she "forces" it so she can put this outward appearance to the world of a strong, beautiful, feminine girl.

    What I'm getting to is this: I think NT girls are so much in their own heads that sometimes, they forget how they really are. Although I call her "dude" and see her as one of my best guy friends, she is INCREDIBLY feminine in my eyes. Even down to the nitty-gritty details when she tells me things like "I don't really like getting advice from people, but I want people to just hear me out." I had an ex dump me because she hated that I offered solutions.

    Ultimately, I think NTs would do well to take a step back on how they THINK the world perceives them, and how they may ACTUALLY be perceived. She tells me she gets self-conscious because she gets so enthusiastic in class, that it becomes a discussion between her and the professor, and she just feels everyone's eyes burning her from their disgust and judging her as a "nerd." I know, for me, if there was a girl that looked like her and acted that way in class, I would "coincidentally" sit next to her in class the next day. In. Love.

    I don't think it's necessarily being "good" at being a girl, I think it comes down to perception. My friends who don't really know me think I need to be a man's man, but the ones who REALLY know me know the details about how I love operas, musicals, fancy shmancy sushi restaurants, wine tastings, and how not only would I be tolerant if I had a gay son/daughter, but I've been on record saying I HOPE I do to add some "flavor to my family dynamic."

    This ENTP has admitted to me that she's lucky to have "good genes" and only puts some eye makeup on during "special occasions," is against wearing perfume because "smelly, expensive water...bleh," and she goes to store, looks for the cheapest shampoo, never conditions, never adds product, yet has beautiful, luscious, perfectly straight, long brown hair (although I found a photo of her where her hair looks good in front, a mess in the back -- probably typical of NT types). Anyways, she still looks amazing, and I've witnessed her get hit on in bars ALL the time, she smiles, lets the guy have his minute or two holding her hand, then rejects him with the wittiest, most emasculating letdown while still maintaining an "aww....this is so cute of you and so flattering" face that, more times than none, goes WAY over the guy's head (he walks away not entirely sure about what just happened). I should say that when I witnessed this, it was during a time when she and I weren't talking and weren't exactly getting along (she didn't trust me, I thought she was a bitch, this lasted about 5 months -- next day after she got hit on by about 5 guys, we apologized to each other, and then started talking again). Moral is, ENTP girls for some reason, by nature, look INCREDIBLY gorgeous, and even ENTP guys, for some reason, are very good-looking as well. Unfortunately (or fortunately, I guess), a lot about 'femininity' and 'masculinity' comes down to physical appearance. A bottle-shaped figure with a pretty face and nice hair is just about all you need to be considered "feminine," and a chiseled face with big muscles is all you really need to be considered "masculine." All comes down to others' perceptions. How do you see yourself?

    In the end, just do you. You'd be surprised at who is watching in awe. This ENTP girl who thinks she has problems with her own femininity is, in my eyes, a sort of Muse. She's a woman's woman.

  2. #102
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Women really are in a terrible bind. Women mimic arousal with rouge, lipstick, brassiers, and high heels, to actually arouse the male in order to make him suggestible and easy to control.

    So on one hand, if women ceased to mimic arousal, they would lose control of the male; and on the other hand, if women continue to mimic arousal, they end up only as mimics and pay the price of their real self.

    This seems to be a trap from which there is no escape, and it is a time honoured trap supported by the whole society.

    But when we are in a trap the only important thing is to get out.

  3. #103
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    Haha, opposite. As a young teenager, I wished I could fit in with people like the OP and scorned myself for being too sensitive and having too much fun dressing up. Then I rioted or something because most of the "masculine" and "feminine" markers that come up in discussions like this are so surface-level. Strength comes from underneath the decorations.

    Whoever you are, own it deeply and it won't be weak.
    I know this is old, but this ^
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  4. #104
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I'm Not Good at Being a "Girl"
    Let's trade, for I am terrible at being a "Boy".
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #105
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    I am only a boy because my anima is a girl.

    And you are a girl because your animus is a boy.

    Of course this is hidden from us because our anima and animus are unconscious.

    So each of us contains within us the deepest knowledge of the opposite gender, but we conceal this from ourselves in order to give us the identity: girl or boy.

    So as a girl or boy we are frauds, but at the very deepest level we know each other intimately. Of course to bring such knowledge into consciousness is taboo and completely socially unacceptable.

    And this taboo makes it inevitable we will fall in love with each other.

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