[ENTJ] ENTJ's; how do you defend yourself against your supervisor "The ISTP's?"

[Ezra]

You can spot them by the ones who instead of smiling or saying hi when they walk by: they push, kick, or hit you instead. They also have a habit of using notebooks, briefcases, pencils, and pinatas as well. They tend to lure you into a vulnerable position, or just attack when you're in such position. Such as: taking a picture, picking up something off the ground, being in deep thought, walking by, or even the dreaded "standing there."

Hold up. This is socionics you're talking about, not MBTT.

 

[Lindaxo]

I imagine ISTP's as being a type to not know where the line is. I'm guessing they think they're joking. Whatever they want to call it, its bullying. I'm 16 and I live in the mid-west & I'm a junior in high school. I have had many supervisors like this since the age of 4. They were usually boyfriends of family members or friends' step dads.


And thats sad that you applaud them. Because from what I've seen: they wont do this to someone their own age. That would be a fair fight. Can't see that ever happening.


Ezra: What does it matter?

 

[Colors]

Then you need to grow a backbone! If you don't like that whole "buddy-ole-pal" sort of greeting, then state so and stand your ground.

 

[alcea rosea]

The behavior you describe does not describe the behavior of ISTP that I know. Based on your posts, it seems you are dealing with rather unstable person.

 

[Lindaxo]

Well I guess. I wish they could just be a little nicer thats all.

 

[Mort Belfry]

All joking aside; kill the fuckers.

 

[Ezra]

Ezra: What does it matter?

Basically, I'm an SLE (ESTp) in socionics. That means SLIs aren't my Supervisors; they're my Extinguishment partners, which is a very different relationship.

How am I SLE in socionics? Because the functions are described differently by Augusta, the one who practically invented the system. She took Jung's functions as described in MBTT, and put her own unique spin on them, giving individuals the potential to be a socionics type different to their MBTT type, even vastly so. For example, the ESFP in MBTT doesn't like to command individuals; they feel uncomfortable in this position. However, if you look at the SEE (ESFp), you'll find that this is strictly untrue. Someone with a Se base (like me) loves command positions; finds them totally natural. So how can one be an ESFP and an SEE? You can only be so if you find command positions both natural and unnatural, which is contradictory. Napoleon was an SEE, but he sure as shit wasn't an ESFP.

Check the tables out here, about half way down the page, concerning socionics and MBTT correlations. They're actually very interesting. There are few at the16types.info forums who will claim that socionics types and MBTT types are exactly the same. Here I will go as far to say that socionically, they have no idea what they're talking about, no matter how much they proclaim to have read Jung or the various type descriptions that so many have written about. Many share this view with me. One thing. If you do become interested in the correlations, be careful about doing what I did and going on about it so much. (1) Very few who have any sense even care and (2) the correlations themselves are entirely fruitless. I've only just begun to realise this. They're more of an intellectual 'fun' activity.

 

[rainfall]

Yes well for some reason every ISTP that does that shit has at least 20 years on me, and is male. I would get my ass beat to the ground. I didn't expect anyone to understand, no one ever does, and nothing ever gets done about it. All I want to know is how I REALLY need to deal with this. They don't respond to politeness and the last thing I even want to do is get angry so I am nowhere. Why can't they just be civil?

Stop, no, and yelling 'what the hell' does not work. Only momentarily, but they're usually back for another round within a couple of hours to a day.

Play it off as sexual harassment and get the bastard fired.

 

[Lindaxo]

It gets on my nerves when people touch me like in the buddy ole pal way and i just try to ignore the person so maybe they'll stop talking to me. But noo! not istps, doesn't work. lol

And Ezra: that sounds very interesting. But that would mean they have completely different translating systems for the four letters though, but they all mean the same thing? Idk. But which one applys here than?

 

[Electric]

Basically, I'm an SLE (ESTp) in socionics. That means SLIs aren't my Supervisors; they're my Extinguishment partners, which is a very different relationship.

How am I SLE in socionics? Because the functions are described differently by Augusta, the one who practically invented the system. She took Jung's functions as described in MBTT, and put her own unique spin on them, giving individuals the potential to be a socionics type different to their MBTT type, even vastly so. For example, the ESFP in MBTT doesn't like to command individuals; they feel uncomfortable in this position. However, if you look at the SEE (ESFp), you'll find that this is strictly untrue. Someone with a Se base (like me) loves command positions; finds them totally natural. So how can one be an ESFP and an SEE? You can only be so if you find command positions both natural and unnatural, which is contradictory. Napoleon was an SEE, but he sure as shit wasn't an ESFP.

Check the tables out here, about half way down the page, concerning socionics and MBTT correlations. They're actually very interesting. There are few at the16types.info forums who will claim that socionics types and MBTT types are exactly the same. Here I will go as far to say that socionically, they have no idea what they're talking about, no matter how much they proclaim to have read Jung or the various type descriptions that so many have written about. Many share this view with me. One thing. If you do become interested in the correlations, be careful about doing what I did and going on about it so much. (1) Very few who have any sense even care and (2) the correlations themselves are entirely fruitless. I've only just begun to realise this. They're more of an intellectual 'fun' activity.

Ummm, they are intellectually fun if they work....

Also, don't know if you've heard but ENTJs can seem like ESTP and vice versa.

Other examples,
ENFJ can seem ENTJish.
INTJ and ISTP can look like each other.

EDIT: Just checked out the charts. It's proof, but doesn't have statistical significance. Many people don't knows their type or have much indept understanding so it's subjective. Statistic like these are fallible to bias and manipulation. Perhaps there are other proofs? I wouldn't put too much stock on those charts. Also, there are many ways to look at a type anyways so the profiles aren't written in stone. Most descriptions are linear and not three dimensional. They offer a side into each type. I wouldn't say it's useless to correlate MBTI with socionics.

There are some things I like about socionics, and some things I don't. I would use it only to explore the jungian functions. It sounds preposterous that you consider yourself an ENTJ in MBTI and a ESTP in socionics. Looking at the functions, those types are very different though the description can seem similar.

SeTi is a whole different package than TeNi. SeTi is used to perceive information(perceiver) while TeNi is used to manipulate information(judger). I don't know what drug you were on but the ENTJ both in Socionics, MBTI, and ect. are referred as the stereotypical business type and are widely overrepresented as CEOs. The skills for such jobs require the use of dominant Te and secondary Ni. An ESTP perceiver have limits on what kinds of large business operations they can run using short sightedness Se which they indulge themselves in. Businesses have an advantage by looking into the future not the present.

There are some stuff that I find untrustworthy from the site you provided.

For example, the type ENTJ in MBTT is described as a typical leader, an intellectual dictator, like Napoleon Bonaparte. In socionics, Napoleon Bonaparte is considered to be a different type representative, and ENTj (logical-intuitive extravert) also looks somewhat differently—rather a quick and practice-oriented intellectual than a “dictator”.

ENTJs are not considered intellectual dictators. I wouldn't trust celebrity typology as well.

What can we say? Such an approach leads to much greater misunderstanding. It does not only contradict to Jung – after all, Jung lived long ago, and there were many uncertainties in his typology and in his ides in general. But when we start comparing descriptions of the socionic types with the corresponding American descriptions, then we will find that ISFP (socionic) = ISFP (MBTT) and not ISFJ (MBTT), and the same rule is valid for the rest of sensory introverted types. The situation is more complicated with introverted intuitive types, but well, this rule is also invalid.

Why do they keep using MBTT, it's MBTI...Anyway, what's wrong with comparing American descriptions with Russian descriptions? Sound more like they're worried about capitalism. Too bad, most insitutions and business entities use MBTI anyways. The site's understanding of MBTI is even more laughable when we get to "Basic differences between MBTI and Socionics" chart.

SOCIONICS: Personality Types and Relationships The chart is somewhere in the middle. It's pretty bias.

 

[Ezra]

And Ezra: that sounds very interesting. But that would mean they have completely different translating systems for the four letters though, but they all mean the same thing? Idk. But which one applys here than?

It's a different system. Many believe socionics type is equal to MBTT type, not helped by the fact that we call types with the 'same' functional make up in both systems the same type, even though it's a different system. Many more believe otherwise. You have to make up your own mind by studying each system.

Ummm, they are intellectually fun if they work....

Well, I'm sorry, but intellectually you are not going to enjoy yourself. They don't work. If you study socionics more, you'll see why.

Also, don't know if you've heard but ENTJs can seem like ESTP and vice versa.

I have studied that. And ENTJ makes more sense for me.

EDIT: Just checked out the charts. It's proof, but doesn't have statistical significance. Many people don't knows their type or have much indept understanding so it's subjective. Statistic like these are fallible to bias and manipulation. Perhaps there are other proofs? I wouldn't put too much stock on those charts.

It was merely for interest's sake; for intellectual curiosity.

I wouldn't say it's useless to correlate MBTI with socionics.

Study the two systems in conjunction with each other more. I was once of the same opinion. Now I place much less weight on it.

There are some things I like about socionics, and some things I don't. I would use it only to explore the jungian functions.

It has far more practicality than MBTT does. I study MBTT because it's interesting; it's an intellectually stimulating exercise. Socionics, on the other hand, is more fruitful. It can lead to very gratifying relationships with others.

It sounds preposterous that you consider yourself an ENTJ in MBTI and a ESTP in socionics. Looking at the functions, those types are very different though the description can seem similar.

There is no such think as an ESTP in socionics. What many consider to be quite similar in socionics to the ESTP in MBTT is the SLE. Here's some information on the SLE. You'll recognise the differences between the ESTP and the SLE I think, most notably the fact that the SLE uses all eight functions, while the ESTP only uses four. I've often wondered why. Perhaps it's because they're completely different systems, with different models, temperaments and other theories attached to them. But what do I know? I've just studied the two systems in conjunction with one another and recognised that only idiots and those yet to see it would think that ABCD = ABCd.

SeTi is a whole different package than TeNi. SeTi is used to perceive information(perceiver) while TeNi is used to manipulate information(judger). I don't know what drug you were on but the ENTJ both in Socionics, MBTI, and ect. are referred as the stereotypical business type and are widely overrepresented as CEOs. The skills for such jobs require the use of dominant Te and secondary Ni. An ESTP perceiver have limits on what kinds of large business operations they can run using short sightedness Se which they indulge themselves in. Businesses have an advantage by looking into the future not the present.

What you speak of is true. That doesn't mean that the ENTJ equates to the LIE. There are many discrepancies between the two types that you blatently haven't noticed or researched.

There are some stuff that I find untrustworthy from the site you provided.

Okay, fair enough. I'd be surprised if you encountered any piece of information that you found to be completely flawless in every respect.

ENTJs are not considered intellectual dictators.

And?

I wouldn't trust celebrity typology as well.

Why not?

Why do they keep using MBTT, it's MBTI...

MBTT is an acronym for Myers-Briggs Type Theory, as KTT is an acronym for Keirsey Temperament Theory. Newcomers to socionics will often refer to it as MBTI (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), without recognising that MBTI refers to the test itself, even when they want to discuss not the test, but the theory itself. You could call it "MBTI theory", but MBTT is quicker.

Anyway, what's wrong with comparing American descriptions with Russian descriptions?

Nothing.

Sound more like they're worried about capitalism.

Sounds like we have a counterphobic bullshitter coming up with theories for something which they know absolutely nothing about.

Too bad, most insitutions and business entities use MBTI anyways.

Too bad, most people will never reap the major rewards socionics has to offer.

The site's understanding of MBTI is even more laughable when we get to "Basic differences between MBTI and Socionics" chart.

SOCIONICS: Personality Types and Relationships The chart is somewhere in the middle. It's pretty bias.

I'd say they have quite a good basic understanding of MBTT. If you have a claim they've made to refute, come out with an argument to back it up. Don't just mock it. If you studied socionics more, I think you'd find that the claims made about socionics are also true.

 

[Electric]

I was just providing another side to your stance. So far, the best thing you can come up with is for me to do more research into socionics. That's fine but I could offer you the same advice.

I'm not mocking socionics but the site you provided. It's not really official to be basing evidence off it. I was just joking about some of the stuff on the site too but it seem I'm a counterphobic bullshitter. errr....anyways, I know what MBTT means. Most people refer it to MBTI but Socionic people have to be different.

You shouldn't consider me a new comer, I know what you're talking about. Despite this, Socionics has less practical use than MBTI so you should have less faith. You probably were in a superficial looking position, but you don't know the difference between Te and Ti so it's probably different. Yeah, I pointed a short coming of yours which you should acknowledge before you accuse someone of not knowing there stuff. You need to study other things than socionics. It's not anywhere near a real science like psychology or physics. There have been researchers in my university that have looked up socionics and consider it to have many inconsistencies. Much more than MBTI and Keirsey. That's probably why most institutes and business entities use MBTI/Keirsey/Jungian Theory rather than Socionics.

There is a misunderstanding here however, I don't want to say an ENTJ = LIE. I want to say that the ENTJ ~ LIE. Like I said, I use socionics to explore their interpretation on the Jungian functions. The ESTP does have 8 functions...you can look that up on the site your provided..Here's a translated description.ESTp - Function Analysis - The16types.info

Stop being a difficult person! I have been nice to back up my many of my claims. The chart is obviously bias. An example is where it's comparing political correctness. Also, you have glanced by some of my replies. Hopefully you will reread them as your answers are insufficient. Like where you claim that all websites have some flaws...well that's fair, but this one has a whole bunch of flaws that I pointed out...Now I respect your views if you can defend them justifiably, but don't be name calling!

EDIT: Forgot to add, I wouldn't trust celebrity profiles because people can pigeonhole their character into linear profile.

It's true that socionics is based on other theories. Perhaps Reinin, Gulenko and ect.?

 

[Ezra]

Most people refer it to MBTI but Socionic people have to be different.

No, it's more logical to refer to it as MBTT, and to the test as MBTI. We don't refer to the Enneagram as RHETI (Riso & Hudson Enneagram Type Indicator), do we, so why should we refer to Myers-Briggs Type Theory as Myers-Briggs Type Indicator? There's much more to the theory than the test itself. Hence, it should be given full credit.

You shouldn't consider me a new comer, I know what you're talking about. Despite this, Socionics has less practical use than MBTI so you should have less faith. You probably were in a superficial looking position, but you don't know the difference between Te and Ti so it's probably different. Yeah, I pointed a short coming of yours which you should acknowledge before you accuse someone of not knowing there stuff. You need to study other things than socionics. It's not anywhere near a real science like psychology or physics. There have been researchers in my university that have looked up socionics and consider it to have many inconsistencies. Much more than MBTI and Keirsey. That's probably why most institutes and business entities use MBTI/Keirsey/Jungian Theory rather than Socionics.

This is exactly the kind of arrogant, misconstrued and narrow-minded Westerner viewpoint that will never allow you to even research socionics properly. You're hopelessly stuck with your own views and opinions, and will refuse to research something more fully so that you come to a better understanding about it.

There is a misunderstanding here however, I don't want to say an ENTJ = LIE. I want to say that the ENTJ ~ LIE. Like I said, I use socionics to explore their interpretation on the Jungian functions. The ESTP does have 8 functions...you can look that up on the site your provided..Here's a translated description.ESTp - Function Analysis - The16types.info

Well, didn't that backfire. That's not a description of an ESTP. That's a description of an SLE. One of things I don't agree with in socionics is the usage of the four-letter type code, which only aids fools like you to completely misinterpret socionics as an Eastern, communistic, cheap rip off of the more globally accepted and praised MBTT. Truth is, if you truly took the time to study the theory, I think you might actually develop not just an appreciation for it, but a preference.

I wouldn't trust celebrity profiles because people can pigeonhole their character into linear profile.

MBTT also condones this practice, evidently. Do you agree with that?

It's true that socionics is based on other theories. Perhaps Reinin, Gulenko and ect.?

Reinin and Gulenko are examples of socionists. Aushra Augustinavichiute used Jung's original functions and put her own (better, IMO) unique spin on them. It was unfortunate that MBTT came before socionics, because socionics is a far more viable and logical theory. There are the intertype relationships, which MBTT doesn't have (or at least originally didn't). These are the basis of socionics. A lot of people at the16types.info forum try to persuade me that there's no practical value in MBTT, and I search ruthlessly for evidence that there is. So, I get criticised by idiots like you for studying a perfectly acceptable and superior theory, while attempting to defend MBTT from individuals on that forum who see no use in the theory.

 

[CzeCze]

^^ All very interesting discussion, I had no idea you two knew so much about socionics/MBT theory (even if you are disagreeing with each other)

Lindaxo, how sure are you about being ENTJ (according to MBTI)? I was just wondering because I always got the impression that ENTJ is assertive (as displayed by Electric and Ezra's interaction) and the kind to nip things in the bud but from your natural reaction/instincts to the 'buddy routine' and your other post about the boy who jokes you're his baby's momma ... it honestly doesn't strike me as typically entj.

Just asking because confirming your type would help a lot in correctly assessing why things are happening and what you can do about it.

 

[Lindaxo]

I was an ENTJ when I started this thread, but then I started 'feeling different' and I re-took the test and got ENFP. This happned to me about a year ago also when I felt the same way and I got ENFP, so I knew what was happening. It seems like my entire way of thinking changed overnight. I don't understand it. But yeah I am defintiely an ENFP now, and I was definitely ENTJ then.



In stressful situations I'm not very great at standing up for myself because I usually am trying so hard not to cry or whatever after a while that it makes it very difficult and I don't like to get like that in front of people. I ended up getting really good at it, suffocating my emotions, around most people, but there were some people that would just make me snap. Like ISTP's. Everyone else was no problem.
I'm not really into burning bridges with ex's. I will try to let them down easy and hope that its nice enough so we can stay friends like before. I don't really know if all ENTJ's brutally dump their significant others, even if they're crazy. I still care about them to some degree, so I could at least try not to be cold hearted about it.

 

[INTJMom]

You can spot them by the ones who instead of smiling or saying hi when they walk by: they push, kick, or hit you instead. They also have a habit of using notebooks, briefcases, pencils, and pinatas as well. They tend to lure you into a vulnerable position, or just attack when you're in such position. Such as: taking a picture, picking up something off the ground, being in deep thought, walking by, or even the dreaded "standing there."

Nope.
I have 2 ISTP males in my family and your description isn't even close.
What are the chances of an ISTP being a supervisor anyway?
They hate that stuff.

I don't know what type you're describing.
It's usually the SJs or NTs that are supervisors,
unless they're forced into the position by being a family member of the owners.

 

[INTJMom]

Basically, I'm an SLE (ESTp) in socionics. That means SLIs aren't my Supervisors; they're my Extinguishment partners, which is a very different relationship.

How am I SLE in socionics? Because the functions are described differently by Augusta, the one who practically invented the system. She took Jung's functions as described in MBTT, and put her own unique spin on them, giving individuals the potential to be a socionics type different to their MBTT type, even vastly so. For example, the ESFP in MBTT doesn't like to command individuals; they feel uncomfortable in this position. However, if you look at the SEE (ESFp), you'll find that this is strictly untrue. Someone with a Se base (like me) loves command positions; finds them totally natural. So how can one be an ESFP and an SEE? You can only be so if you find command positions both natural and unnatural, which is contradictory. Napoleon was an SEE, but he sure as shit wasn't an ESFP.

Check the tables out here, about half way down the page, concerning socionics and MBTT correlations. They're actually very interesting. There are few at the16types.info forums who will claim that socionics types and MBTT types are exactly the same. Here I will go as far to say that socionically, they have no idea what they're talking about, no matter how much they proclaim to have read Jung or the various type descriptions that so many have written about. Many share this view with me. One thing. If you do become interested in the correlations, be careful about doing what I did and going on about it so much. (1) Very few who have any sense even care and (2) the correlations themselves are entirely fruitless. I've only just begun to realise this. They're more of an intellectual 'fun' activity.

Thanks Ezra.
I thought she meant a supervisor at work!

 

[Lindaxo]

Nope.
I have 2 ISTP males in my family and your description isn't even close.
What are the chances of an ISTP being a supervisor anyway?
They hate that stuff.

I don't know what type you're describing.
It's usually the SJs or NTs that are supervisors,
unless they're forced into the position by being a family member of the owners.

If you're an ENTJ, your supervisor is the ISTP. according to socionics...

 

[6sticks]

You don't know anything about the MBTI.

/mean ISTP

 

[INTJMom]

If you're an ENTJ, your supervisor is the ISTP. according to socionics...

Yeah, I got that impression after reading Ezra's post.
Sorry I didn't understand at first.
Never heard of it before, actually - a supervisor, I mean.