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[ENTP] Need some advice about my ENTP brother.

R

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That's so ironic though, isn't it? He is showing the most weakness in his ability to do his job right now. Surely he must see that he is neglecting things? It's not like he's stupid. I've juked out ideas with him in the past and made things happen. Now he just avoids my ideas or finds some excuse.

I suppose it may seem he is treating me like I'm someone 'weaker', but I really hope he knows better and that the issue is something else. I at least would like to believe that in the past 8 years I have proven my value, and the sacrifices I have made did not go unnoticed. But if they did, yeah, probably better to move on then.

Sounds in a way like a failing marriage. The marriage works great for a while, but then one day there’s an intangible shift in circumstances or attitude, and suddenly the old formula doesn’t work anymore. One partner is in deep denial, and the other partner is loaded down with an unfair burden and tearing his/her hair out.

So maybe try to think in those terms when you confront your brother. (Any way you can engage a third party to act as “marriage counselor” between you two?) And accept the possibility that you may eventually have to seek a divorce. It may not be in your power to resolve whatever problems have led to your brother's shift in attitude. Shit happens, and you just have to cut your losses and walk away.
 

rav3n

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Actually, plse nix my advice. I'm the worst person to give advice when it comes to an ENTP under stress.
 
R

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Actually, plse nix my advice. I'm the worst person to give advice when it comes to an ENTP under stress.

I thought it was good advice. When there's a lot on the line, the best thing to do is just be honest. If the other person's in denial and can't handle it, then so be it. Not your fault.
 

rav3n

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I thought it was good advice. When there's a lot on the line, the best thing to do is just be honest. If the other person's in denial and can't handle it, then so be it. Not your fault.
Thanks but this isn't just objective business. There's the underlying emotional aspect of siblings, where their father created an untenable situation for Fluffywolf, in that he put him at a major disadvantage with no ownership in the company. That his brother is an ENTP under stress just complicates it greatly and puts the situation way outside my expertise.
 

jenocyde

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Thanks but this isn't just objective business. There's the underlying emotional aspect of siblings, where their father created an untenable situation for Fluffywolf, in that he put him at a major disadvantage with no ownership in the company. That his brother is an ENTP under stress just complicates it greatly and puts the situation way outside my expertise.

I feel the same way - this thing is too icky to poke with a stick.

Walk away, Fluff. Walk away.

He'll be angry at first, but when the dust settles, he'll be willing to listen.
 

Fluffywolf

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Right now, this is where I'm at.

The fact remains that this company is a two man job, since we're not very large, we can't oursource all of the front end work to employees, and quite frankly, I am awesome with customers, I never say too much, never too little, never brush wrong with any customer and always offer correct service while being capable of making all the descisions that need to be taken directly with all customers. Plus we do not have sufficient good employees to take on all the work and it's not easy finding the right people for the jobs that are capable of offering what we require.
The competition is deadly, prices are way low, the government is harsh on the market, many competetors have already fallen, or been sold to bigger companies, whilest we still remain and working order, not very large, but offering unrivaled quality and service in our branche using a formula that requires us to both be part of the company, we have customers all over the country and a very good name. Wether or not me and my brother are in our element, this is something I am proud of and wouldn't want to see to go to waste.

So ultimately, I think I am wanting to see this through for as long as possible. I just need to get my own head straight and feel like I am backing up my own position of what I am doing. So I won't be running around like a headless chicken in the future.

But yeah, if there's no improvement sometime soon. I'll really have to cut my losses. :(
 
R

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Quite true what everyone is saying about the messiness of the situation. But it’s precisely when things are messy and without neat guidelines that you most need honesty and good communication. That’s why I compared Fluffy’s situation to a marriage. Marriages tend not to have specific guidelines for how to handle conflict. You just muddle through, or you divorce. And in the end if you manage to muddle through, it’s probably because one or both of you were honest and communicated your needs, and maybe forced your partner to make a hard choice or two.
 

entropie

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Situation sounds dangerous and there will definitly be spilled some of your blood. But you need to tell him what you think, he needs new input to think about. And if he loves you, he'll think about what you tell him

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_coeA30NyPU"].[/YOUTUBE]
 

jenocyde

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Ok, Fluff. Your only option is to just tell him that. Tell him, without being accusatory, that you are unhappy with the way things are going because you don't think you are communicating well. If he starts to get all huffy, don't push the conversation any further - he's not ready to listen. Just quietly start exploring other options.

Be firm and under control, don't whine or hem and haw. I'm sure you can handle that, but if not, I can give you the same tips I gave my INTP to deal with uncomfortable or unpredictable situations.
 

Fluffywolf

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Being firm and under control is pretty natural to me, and I only ever whine in jest, but never in work situations. I am a proud owner of an unfillable bucket. :p

I can cut the subject and see how he reacts.
 

rav3n

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As a thought, how about addressing the human/emotional element first, then business next?

Jenocyde and entropie, when an ENTP has their back up, what would work to get it to come down?
 

entropie

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If he's as stubborn as I am only a prayer to god would help.

He'd need time to think about the situation, but the thinking has to start first before he can think about it. If he's angry he will not think, if he becomes defensive he wont think aswell. He needs to be left alone, isolated, he needs to be exposed to a situation that makes him feel very bad, like his borther not calling him no more and avoiding him. But even when that happens its unsure when the thinking starts
 

Fluffywolf

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I have addressed him on his 'unhealthy' lifestyle plenty of times. For example, he doesn't eat breakfast or lunch and regurarly the first thing he eats is dinner. And when he is being cranky I tell him "Dude, just get a sandwhich or something." and he's like "Nah, it's not the food, I'm not hungry anyway.", I've even brough him sandwhiches at times, and although he'd eat them he would almost immidiately feel the need to discourage me from thinking that would lighten up his day by saying something snarky, whatever suit yourself. And plenty of other habits I confronted him about. Drinking coffee with 6 cubes of sugar for example. His explanation, it's to cover for the fact he didn't eat breakfast. Etc. :p

Well, I'm not his girlfriend so I won't bring him food every day, so whatever. I just pretty much always tell him to suit himself.

But it's easy to confront him on other things than business. Because I don't feel the pressure of him blowing up about it. But when it comes to business, that's something he would definately feel the need to protect. But his emotional state is definately something I could probe. Still, I don't really know an effective way to do so, I never got him to eat breakfast on his own account for example, so no success there. :D
 

rav3n

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Thanks entropie. Based on entropie's response, jenocyde's solutions fit well.
 

jenocyde

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As a thought, how about addressing the human/emotional element first, then business next?

Jenocyde and entropie, when an ENTP has their back up, what would work to get it to come down?

If he's as stubborn as I am only a prayer to god would help.

He'd need time to think about the situation, but the thinking has to start first before he can think about it. If he's angry he will not think, if he becomes defensive he wont think aswell. He needs to be left alone, isolated, he needs to be exposed to a situation that makes him feel very bad, like his borther not calling him no more and avoiding him. But even when that happens its unsure when the thinking starts

This.

Like I said, walk away and let him see for himself how much it sucks. When I'm annoyed with someone, it's like listening to all the adults on the Charlie Brown comics "blah blah blah". I need to see it and explore it for myself. Ne is busy collecting data and being all paranoid, but we need to be alone to process it and let Ti work its magic. If I'm really stubborn, I will see it as you telling me what to do and this is never a good thing.

A close sibling not speaking to me anymore over some bullshit like business is very very damaging and will put things way into perspective. It will make me feel petty which is not a good look for me.
 
R

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I was a boss of a cantankerous ENTP for many years. He was a handful. But if I had a strong case and held my ground, the ENTP would yield. Now, of course, I was the boss in that situation; and Fluffy has the additional burden of sibling rivalry going on in the background. Still, in my experience ENTPs are flexible enough that they don’t mind giving someone else the point if it’s clearly warranted. That’s one area where I really respected that guy--if my argument genuinely had merit, then he acknowledged and respected the merits of the points I made. He didn’t insist on being right solely for the sake of winning.

Fluffy seems to think that the argument to be made is fairly clear and self-evident. So as I see it, it’s mostly just a question of presenting the argument. Stand firm and insist on the merits of your side.

Don’t try to butter up the ENTP with a lot of deference and compliments ahead of time. That’s one thing I learned from my experience with that fellow. He hated that. Better to be direct and go straight at the subject.
 

Fluffywolf

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Okay then. Ignoring, not confronting. Leave him to his own devices. I can do that and it is unlikely to incite any unneccesary drama to the business aspect of things.
 

jenocyde

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Ok, to be clear - bring it up, don't just ignore... bring it up and if you are met with resistance, drop it and walk away. If you don't explicitly say something, he'll think the whole problem is with you.
 

jenocyde

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Don’t try to butter up the ENTP with a lot of deference and compliments ahead of time. That’s one thing I learned from my experience with that fellow. He hated that. Better to be direct and go straight at the subject.

Oooh, yes - you are very perceptive.
 
R

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Yeah, I agree. Bring it up, make a strong case; then if you meet resistance, drop it for the time being and let him mull it over. Let his "P" go to work on it for a bit.
 
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