[MBTI General] Are NTJs more like NFPs than NTPs?

[slowriot]

I get on fine with 90% of people although I only get on 'well' with 1% of people. Believe it or not this 90% easily includes Slowriot. Regardless of this, if people raise a technical point that defies logic I reserve the right to allow my mind to explode.

This especially includes occasions where we pretend that MBTI, a system derived from Jung's cognitive processes by Myers and Briggs is referred to as a system 'which has very little to do with' said cognitive processes.

I'm not going to argue that 'in reality' most MBTI'd people could give two flying cockerels about cognitive processes, but that doesn't mean we should accept the 'lowest common denominator' when I'm discussing type with someone who has shared much of the same forum space with myself over the past 3 years.

What I would recommend for you, however is that you do not get involved in a technical argument by making it an issue regarding one individual versus another. Nothing is served in any discussion if you are really going to be foolish enough to step into that spot. Especially as an interfering third party.

In Summary

a) Yes, what Slow just said blew my mind, but it's not personal.
b) I have more respect for Mr. Riot than you know, but I found the technical details wanting.
c) Mind your own.

Thank you Jim, couldnt have said it better myself. I edited so my points might come out more clearly.

 

[slowriot]

I can't say I blame him. it's not even really that I dislike INTPs (I think they're friggin geniuses actually), I just find them impossible to communicate with sometimes, in much the same way that I could see an INTJ having struggles with them. you see INTJs are all about what's the core issue? how do I solve the puzzle? what's the one piece of information with which I can move a mountain? while INTPs value more the technicalities of the project, and will argue those to you before you've even decided the direction you want to go in.

I dont understand. What makes you say that?

 

[InvisibleJim]

Thank you Jim, couldnt have said it better myself. I edited so my points might come out more clearly.

Yes, this makes much more sense and I entirely agree. Tak tak tak!

Some NTJs and NFPs give because they 'share styles' but it isn't a rule that they ever will.

I think it's more to do with NFPs and NTJs having a shared way of viewing the external boundaries in their environment and the interaction of those Je (Te) that allows the translation of different perception processes than anything else.

NFPs like exploring the Ni, if they can. But they also like exploring the Si... if they can. They also very much enjoy the freedom of Ne relations they get from INTPs... not so much with the Ti parent of ENTPs. I've seen a lot of NFPs crumble when they are told to think about things inside their headbox.

 

[Elfboy]

I dont understand. What makes you say that?

it's just when Te/Ni and Ti/Ne try to solve a problem, they do so in completely different order from completely different starting places. NFPs are often closer to the way NTJs do it because of Te. NFPs and NTPs can communicate concepts to each other better (I actually struggle with this a lot with my INTJ friend), but NFPs and NTJs will usually agree on "this is the problem. we need that information. the best solution is this. so the first step is this". it's a much more top down approach compared to NTPs who often take a more bottom up approach.

 

[InvisibleJim]

it's just when Te/Ni and Ti/Ne try to solve a problem, they do so in completely different order from completely different starting places. NFPs are often closer to the way NTJs do it because of Te. NFPs and NTPs can communicate concepts to each other better (I actually struggle with this a lot with my INTJ friend), but NFPs and NTJs will usually agree on "this is the problem. we need that information. the best solution is this. so the first step is this". it's a much more top down approach compared to NTPs who often take a more bottom up approach.

I think this is more of an ENFP specific attribute. We were discussing on Ventrilo yesterday how ENFPs enjoy how INTJs 'state the logical steps to everything' and walk them through the way of dealing with systems that they loathe to do alone. It's more natural for an INTJ to be pleasant about using Te and an INTP to be pleasant about using Ti (although for either to flip orientation can be exhausting over time) and the ENFP really prefers T cognition support from Te, as Ti to ENFPs is akin to how the INTJ views Fe or the INTP views Se - something abhorrent they just don't want to think about.

I'm quite enjoying this dalliance into PoLRs/Tricksters.

 

[Elfboy]

I think this is more of an ENFP specific attribute. We were discussing on Ventrilo yesterday how ENFPs enjoy how INTJs 'state the logical steps to everything' and walk them through the way of dealing with systems that they loathe to do alone. It's more natural for an INTJ to be pleasant about using Te and an INTP to be pleasant about using Ti (although for either to flip orientation can be exhausting over time) and the ENFP really prefers T cognition support from Te, as Ti to ENFPs is akin to how the INTJ views Fe or the INTP views Se - something abhorrent they just don't want to think about.

I'm quite enjoying this dalliance into PoLRs/Tricksters.

I think the same thing about Fe sometimes. it just makes me go "ugh, shut up and stop being so damn mushy. no one friggin cares"

 

[slowriot]

it's just when Te/Ni and Ti/Ne try to solve a problem, they do so in completely different order from completely different starting places. NFPs are often closer to the way NTJs do it because of Te. NFPs and NTPs can communicate concepts to each other better (I actually struggle with this a lot with my INTJ friend), but NFPs and NTJs will usually agree on "this is the problem. we need that information. the best solution is this. so the first step is this". it's a much more top down approach compared to NTPs who often take a more bottom up approach.

Okay, Im not sure I actually completely agree. But there may be some truth in it. I try to be more adaptable to the situation so thats why I dont totally agree with you. I dont have a default mode to do things in. But yes we may start different places, even if the end result is the same.

 

[INTPness]

I think the same thing about Fe sometimes. it just makes me go "ugh, shut up and stop being so damn mushy. no one friggin cares"

Not to get too far off topic here, but this is what Fe users don't get about Fi users. If you say "stop being so mushy, nobody cares" - well, that's not true because nobody is more mushy inside than the Fi users. So, obviously you do care about the mushiness. So, why is it then so strange to see someone express said mushiness? I've gotten others perspectives on this, but I'd like to hear yours.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Not to get too far off topic here, but this is what Fe users don't get about Fi users. If you say "stop being so mushy, nobody cares" - well, that's not true because nobody is more mushy inside than the Fi users. So, obviously you do care about the mushiness. So, why is it then so strange to see someone express said mushiness? I've gotten others perspectives on this, but I'd like to hear yours.

I don't think any type is intrinsically more mushy than others. Merely Fe users wish to converge their ethical boundaries with one another; Fi users tend to prefer a 'standalone' approach; however, you will find Tertiary and Anima Fi users shun Fe massively, much like Tertiary and Anima Fe users shun Fi massively.

Addendum

Ji always causes emotions to flare regardless of type.

 

[Elfboy]

Not to get too far off topic here, but this is what Fe users don't get about Fi users. If you say "stop being so mushy, nobody cares" - well, that's not true because nobody is more mushy inside than the Fi users. So, obviously you do care about the mushiness. So, why is it then so strange to see someone express said mushiness? I've gotten others perspectives on this, but I'd like to hear yours.

I have reached the same logical conclusion as you, which is why actually saying it out loud would be unfair of me(I mean, there's nothing really wrong with what they're doing), but it still bothers me on an irrational level. I only like very specific kinds of mushiness (a kind which there seems to be a ton of in anime for some reason)

 

[INTPness]

I don't think any type is intrinsically more mushy than others. Merely Fe users wish to converge their ethical boundaries with one another; Fi users tend to prefer a 'standalone' approach; however, you will find Tertiary and Anima Fi users shun Fe massively, much like Tertiary and Anima Fe users shun Fi massively.

Addendum

Ji always causes emotions to flare regardless of type.

Yeah, I agree with you. I almost said "I'm only talking about Fi-dom or Fi-aux", as it seems a bit different with the others.

I have an ENFP friend - her and I have become fairly close. After a couple months of interacting as friends, we were hanging out and as we were leaving each other I said, "How about a hug?" And she was all . She hugged me and she goes, "I don't mind hugging you at all, but most of the time and with most people I'm not romantic with, I want nothing to do with it." If she didn't want to hug, that would have been fine as I'm not Fe-dom, whereas an ENFJ might have been hurt by it. But, to me, as an Fe user, the hug is just a simple expression of "Hey, you're a good friend and I appreciate you. Thanks for spending the evening with me." It's like a more personable handshake - more meaningful - like "you're not just an acquaintance, you're a good friend" type thing.

While I respect the Fi users not being comfortable with these kinds of things, it is sometimes hard to understand why it's considered threatening or uncomfortable. To the Fe user, it's just a nice gesture. Maybe Fi users associate the physical touch with something much more intimate - like they are giving the other person access to something very personal?

 

[cascadeco]

^ I know what you're trying to illustrate with the hugging example, and yeah, I suppose a hug is one of those social gestures associated with Fe. (? Is it? I don't really know) But it's not really as simple as that.. I mean, some people are just Hug People, others not. I think one of the biggest huggers I knew was a female ENTJ. Go figure! (maybe it's more tied to enneagram stuff? Dunno) Whereas I am not a very physically demonstrative person and never really initiate hugs -- unless I know the other person is a hugger and they've initiated in the past - and then I *might* do it, just because I know it'll make them feel good. But if by choice? Nah, I'd rather not. And I'm definitely not the first person who'd ever initiate. I'm one of those more stiff/unnatural huggers, lol.

 

[Elfboy]

^ I know what you're trying to illustrate with the hugging example, and yeah, I suppose a hug is one of those social gestures associated with Fe. (? Is it? I don't really know) But it's not really as simple as that.. I mean, some people are just Hug People, others not. I think one of the biggest huggers I knew was a female ENTJ. Go figure! (maybe it's more tied to enneagram stuff? Dunno) Whereas I am not a very physically demonstrative person and never really initiate hugs -- unless I know the other person is a hugger and they've initiated in the past - and then I *might* do it, just because I know it'll make them feel good. But if by choice? Nah, I'd rather not. And I'm definitely not the first person who'd ever initiate.

I think when Ts hug it's more deliberate. "I like the positive stimulus I get when I hug someone and they like it to. there's really no negative effects of it, so why not do it all the time" whereas Fs are more likely to do it when they feel like it.

 

[INTPness]

Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Maybe hugging wasn't a good example. I see a lot of INFJ's say they aren't huggers, at least not in public - so there goes my theory up in flames about Fe users being big huggers - lol. But, I guess the point being that Fe users tend to be more expressive of feelings, sentiments, etc. Whereas the Fi users keep it inside more (unless it's that really special someone). But, Fi-dom and Fi-aux are indeed very intense feelers of emotions and stuff. They feel very deeply. Yet, they find it strange/awkward when an Fe user comes along and expresses it. Hopefully it doesn't seem like I'm ripping on Fi users - not at all - just trying to understand the differences here.

 

[Elfboy]

Yeah, I guess you're probably right. Maybe hugging wasn't a good example. I see a lot of INFJ's say they aren't huggers, at least not in public - so there goes my theory up in flames about Fe users being big huggers - lol. But, I guess the point being that Fe users tend to be more expressive of feelings, sentiments, etc. Whereas the Fi users keep it inside more (unless it's that really special someone). But, Fi-dom and Fi-aux are indeed very intense feelers of emotions and stuff. They feel very deeply. Yet, they find it strange/awkward when an Fe user comes along and expresses it. Hopefully it doesn't seem like I'm ripping on Fi users - not at all - just trying to understand the differences here.

it's not so much that we don't express it as much, the feelings are just more low energy to begin with. for instance, if you were crying, Fi might wrap you in a blanket and rub your back, Fe seems a little more high energy and "urgent" (does he need a drink? what's he crying about? it makes me wanna cry too can I comfort him at all? should I just leave him alone? no, I can't do that! I'll go get him that drink!). Fe also takes on the other person's feelings. I hate to admit it, but my first reaction when I see someone crying is "yay! a chance to bond with someone be affectionate!"

 

[skylights]

^ lol. i know what you mean though elfboy, i'm not at all upset by people in emotional distress, and i enjoy helping them out. it's not that i'm happy that they're upset - i wish they weren't - but i know that helping people in emotional distress is something i'm good at and i know that more than likely it will be a positive interaction for us both. i generally take it slowly in that situation also. i find that many people appreciate when you are simply accepting of them, especially because that is such a generally awkward social thing. i usually just politely ask them if they'd like me to stay or leave. and if they'd like me to stay, then i ask if there's anything i can do for them.

love my ESFJ mom though i do, whenever i was upset as a child, she always would try to go and get things to help me and do things for me, when all i really would have liked was for her to sit with me and be emotionally supportive. i expressed that once and she told me she was surprised - and that it's hard for her to just sit with someone who's distressed. she wants to do things for them. i tried to explain that i don't need someone to do things for me - i'm perfectly capable - but i can't emotionally support myself when i'm distressed. my INTP dad would always just ignore me, which i didn't always mind. perhaps the whole experience is somewhat different for Fe/Ti.

--

anyway - ha, i'm weird about hugs, it totally depends on the "chemistry" between myself and the other person. there are some friends i am very comfortable hugging. hell, there are some strangers i'd be comfortable hugging. but some other friends, even though i have known them a long time - i just don't want to hug them at all. my good friend of 8 years now and i don't really make physical contact much at all, whereas my current best friend and i were up in each other's space within a month. i dunno what to make of it, besides it usually corresponds with psychological closeness. the closer i feel to someone psychologically, the more comfortable i am with physical contact with them. maybe it has to do with a subconscious sense of trust, i dunno.

i think i know what you're getting at though, INTPness - when a Fi user initiates a hug, it's likely to be a spontaneous glee thing, or some deep emotional well. not to say that Fe users can't also do that, but oftentimes social exchanges, including hugs, have more of a sense of "currency" to them - more of a warm message of goodwill, as opposed to the Fi ZOMG YOUUU. like you said - like a handshake. though INFJs, i don't know if i've ever seen any of the INFJs i know hug someone, lol.

but i think it also depends a lot on your family and culture. i have a huge half-italian family and they generally like to hug all over each other, regardless of whether you've seen them in the past 17 years or even can remember how they're related to you, so it's something i've learned to tolerate even from near-strangers

 

[INTPness]

it's not so much that we don't express it as much, the feelings are just more low energy to begin with. for instance, if you were crying, Fi might wrap you in a blanket and rub your back, Fe seems a little more high energy and "urgent" (does he need a drink? what's he crying about? it makes me wanna cry too can I comfort him at all? should I just leave him alone? no, I can't do that! I'll go get him that drink!). Fe also takes on the other person's feelings. I hate to admit it, but my first reaction when I see someone crying is "yay! a chance to bond with someone be affectionate!"

INFP/ISFP feelings are low energy? I thought their feelings/emotions were very intense. Maybe more intense with someone very dear to them. Maybe less intense with "regular people"?

 

[Elfboy]

INFP/ISFP feelings are low energy? I thought their feelings/emotions were very intense. Maybe more intense with someone very dear to them. Maybe less intense with "regular people"?

yes, it's true that they can be very intense, just not most of the time. even then, these periods are usually brief. I can't speak for the rest of Fi users, but for me, it's usually not strong "emotion" so to speak as much as just sheer, passionate "I need to do this". my neuroticism is practically 0 though, so I think it's more related to that.

 

[Elfboy]

at the same time, there is a strong sense of closeness/bond with certain people and strong feelings of love, but even these are usually more low energy.

 

[INTPness]

yes, it's true that they can be very intense, just not most of the time. even then, these periods are usually brief. I can't speak for the rest of Fi users, but for me, it's usually not strong "emotion" so to speak as much as just sheer, passionate "I need to do this". my neuroticism is practically 0 though, so I think it's more related to that.

I see. Interesting.

@skylights: Thanks for the input. *Hugs you (whether you like it or not)*. Haha.