[INTJ] INTJ sister.

[rainfall]

Makes me angry to even think about it, and that's why I probably can't figure this on my own.

Let's see.

I got an INTJ sister. I used to tolerate her, but I can't say exactly that it was always pleasurable. When I would hang out with her, I always had to kind of watch what I had to say, so as not to say anything too "weird" or too "stupid" because she would instantly label it as so. Another thing, the belittlement, that really got on my nerves. Whenever I would hang out with her, at least once during the hang out she would rub it into my face that I'm a drop out (she was in college, so I guess that made her feel superior?). Another thing, she's got an ESTJ husband. I respect him, and I respect her choice, but I feel awful when near the guy. I worked for him, and every little single fucking thing I did slightly wrong was like a personal fucking insult to him. I wanted to murder the bastard. I mean, if you got the coffee the wrong size, it was the end of the mother fucking world. He would talk about it for half hour, as if I just murdered half of the human population. It was a BIG DEAL. So, I wanted to pretty much avoid the guy.

In any case, I begun seeing her less and less. Not so much by conscious choice. I guess the desire to call her wasn't there anymore. I need to get up on my feet and do stuff, and seeing her only made me weaker since she busted my balls, rubbing in my faults and weaknesses. It only made me feel more and more insignificant, weak, unable, incapable, broken. Thing is, being the loser I am, I still lived with parents. So she would come over to see parents, and if I hung around she would rub the school thing in even harder and I could see it made her happy to do so. And I just sat there, like a pussy, and took it all, feigning that it did not matter to me. The worst part was, when eventually she said that "my opinion does not matter, since you can't even finish high school". I could not even speak up at the table anymore, because everyone would politely wait till I was through and then pretend like I said nothing and say something like "Is the tea ready?" and move on.

I just stopped coming out of my room when she came over. I didn't need this shit. Then, I was constantly belittled by her whenever I did the mistake of actually going out of the room for something. "You've locked yourself into that room and you would not even see your own sister!". Right, I was the bad guy, because "it did not matter to me" when she came over. Catch 22, really.

But, I only had to handle her few times a month though. It was bearable, and I could slowly started thinking that maybe I was still a human being. However, this all changed when she got pregnant. She quit college for now, and she and her husband and my parents bought a house. Now, she would visit them almost every day or every second day. I just try to stay in my room when she comes over. Actually, I just go to sleep because her presence instantly makes me feel that I am the lowest scum and should just die. I instantly feel tired and drained, and for few hours I am incapable of any activity that would better my situation, so I just sleep.

This could be just my mistake of perception, but I have a sense that she feels miserable when I do good and great when I do bad. When she, who was in a fucking chess school her entire childhood, won a game of chess against me, who played the fucking game only 20 times in his entire life, she jumped up unable to contain her pride and glee. I just kind of sat there like "It's just a game, right?" thought I.

One day she stormed into my room, basically, and told me not to date a certain person. I was threatened that if I did do something, it would be taken up with everyone and the whole thing would basically turn into a shitstorm. Being drunk, and sort of merry and happy at the moment, I just said yeah, okay. But later I realized that I felt even more castrated since I wasn't even allowed to make that decision for myself. [Although, it was a bad decision, I still think I should be allowed to make bad calls on my own...]

I ignored her from that point on and never came to visit her anymore at all. She got mad at that. She said she "wanted a brother who would come visit her, would be interested in how she's doing" etc. And she probably is, she probably really wants me to be friendly with her.

I don't know, I'm sure I have my flaws. Maybe I'm failing to see this the proper way. Maybe I am the bad guy here. Regardless, I have to build up from scratch and begin my own life. I need to start taking care of myself. I think that interaction with this person brings a level of complexity that I am not capable of handling in a suitable manner, and I think that this person has negative impact on me. She maybe a well meaning person who's just got caught up in her own game of acting like she's tough, but I do not think I have the resources to deal with that in a mature manner. I'm barely starting to take care of myself, and I honestly don't think I can handle this as well. Fuck, I don't wanna be mean and cut her out, but fuck, I don't wanna be nice and live with my parents and her for the rest of my life.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Here's to hoping she would not come across to this page. *fingers crossed* ... I'm sure it would just give her material to fire at me...

 

[epsilon72]

I'm curious - are you sure she's an INTJ?

 

[rainfall]

I'm curious - are you sure she's an INTJ?

Scored as one, anyways. She took the MBTI in college/uni. Part of some career course.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Oh my god, that's tough shit you're going through with an abusive person like that. Usually if someone's life is otherwise good, abusers won't have ground to work on. I guess you're basically modest and honest person and she's got some sibling rivalry thing going on, and perhaps other issues - but she's surely dominative and inconsiderate.

I wish the best for you so you can find other things in your life you can enjoy about and become immune to her, if possible. I'll stick around in this thread and give my two cents if I can.

 

[elfinchilde]

INTJs would normally seek to impose control on the external world, only if they are feeling down/inadequate. the panic would then cause them to try and impose extraordinary control on the world without, in an entirely irrational and emotional manner. (ESFP as the shadow: so take all the negative aspects of being an ESFP, essentially.)

In that sense, because she is likely feeling somewhat inadequate about herself (ESTJ as a husband--likely domineering. your worktime under him sounds EXACTLY like my previous ESTJ boss: it was like, mind f***s every damn day. all i can say is, INTP-ESTJ match does not go at all. ), she would seek to boost her sense of self esteem by putting others around her down.

As you're her brother, and younger (?), you would be the easiest target for her. Also, as INTPs, we tend to be very bad at dealing with people, since Fe is our blind spot. We'd just implode til we explode.

Perhaps the way out is to detach yourself from the situation: calmly state what it is you wish, what it is you cannot abide by, and what your ground rules and space rules are about. i.e., dictate your boundaries which she cannot cross.

So:

-what is it about her behaviour towards you that you cannot tolerate? Phrase it in rational terms: INTJs will not take emotions very well. It is their blind spot.

-What is it that you wish from her? (in terms of leaving you alone, support, etc?)

-What does she wish from you? And then: what of it can you give, what can't you give? --And in return for giving these things to her: what can she give you in return?

Negotiate for your own space, in other words. Calmly, rationally. INTP's shadow is ESFJ. The mother hen, as i call it. Which moves by gut instinct alone. When you talk to her, observe her reactions: read her by her deeds and not her words.

Never call her bluff, because INTJs do not like to lose dominance. Phrase it positively. As concern for her.

You'll have to do it in a positive manner, not just for her, but for yourself. For INTPs, we may be so critical of ourselves, that it leashes us down more than others do. It's the Ti blind spot that we have: the critical parent that continually berates us and puts ourselves down.

Hope this helps. Don't let the frustration eat into you. Let it go.

PS: was the pregnancy unexpected? if so, my guess is that it actually makes her feel inadequate (and hence more domineering over you), since it spoils her immaculately laid out plans for herself and her life.

 

[proteanmix]

In that sense, because she is likely feeling somewhat inadequate about herself (ESTJ as a husband--likely domineering. your worktime under him sounds EXACTLY like my previous ESTJ boss: it was like, mind f***s every damn day. all i can say is, INTP-ESTJ match does not go at all. ), she would seek to boost her sense of self esteem by putting others around her down.

elfinchilde, I don't think that's a fair comment to make. Rainfall comes in seeking help for dealing with his INTJ sister and yet somehow it's primarily the ESTJ husband's fault? He barely mentioned the husband.

I wonder why this thread isn't pages long with lots of helpful advice. Could it be because the perp is a beloved IN?

Rainfall, I'm sorry you have to face belittlement and harassment from your own family members. Have you asked your sister why she's so antagonistic towards you? Has your relationship with her always been like this? Can you think of reasons why your parents don't intervene between the two of you? Would your family be willing to have a real discussion about this problem because it seems like it's a family dynamic issue as well. Is it possible for you to move out?

Sometimes problems are beyond the scope of MBTI and advice needs to move beyond this system.

 

[matmos]

Does not sound very INTJ – work courses can sometime deliver Work Face results. Couple of reasons: you say “...had to kind of watch what I had to say, so as not to say anything too "weird" or too "stupid"” and “she stormed into my room”. All the INTJs I've known are rather partial to weird and stupid things. We feel quietly superior if it's really stupid; if it's really weird – the weirder the better! We'll consider anything however weird or crazy. Crazy people and ideas interest us as well and we would NEVER look down on someone less fortunate – although we may make a dark or satirical joke just to see if you get it. She just seems far too overtly emotional to be an INTJ...

It sounds like your problem is with a domineering and aggressive sibling that has always got her own way and probably nothing to do with MBTI. Rather, she sounds like she has a personality disorder of some kind.

If she is an INTJ and you really want to just annoy her you could try a few of the following:
Say something unbelievably irrational – but with with feeling. If she disputes this just keep repeating it over and over, with your hands over your ears. Say something controversial like “dogs don't look up at the sky” quoting a “friend of a friend”. Watch the look on her face and smile inanely.
Get into a “I can scream louder than you” argument full of irrational statements and over the top emotions! If she's an INTJ she will balk and exit stage left.

Well, joking over.

You could try being assertive and explain that crossing the line makes you feel bad and even if she is right it is ultimately none of her business. You may need to try this several times. This rationale should appeal to her if she is an INTJ. We are mindful of how close to get to people – even close friends and family. Putting a lock on the bedroom door will give her a clue. We would NEVER invade someone's space unannounced or uninvited.

As for her husband. You owe him nothing; he's a red herring as your core problem is with your sis. Sort her and you'll sort him.

Penultimate point: it is only by a very strange, almost mystical way that you are related to these people at all! An accident of the gods really. Unless you really “need” the affections of this little monster then the phrase “putting good money after bad” may apply to you. Some people are just not worth the bother and you will feel relieved if you sever links with her and, consequently, her husband. You may consider this as a last option. Do not ever threaten to do this unless you are prepared to carry it out. You will become a bigger joke.

Very last point: don't become an archetypal victim. This will encourage her more. Never become aggressive but remain assertive. You may need to repeat this method but always remain calm. Do not ask politely for your rights – demand them. If she is an INTJ she will be open to your reasons. Be unequivocal - and don't let the bastards getcha down.

I hope you reach the right decision for yourself and sort things out.

Bananatrombones

 

[cafe]

I'd say the situation is no win. You are going to catch crap no matter what you do, so you might as well do what most benefits you.

Have you tried playing the sympathy card with your parents when they berate you for not wanting to be around her? Telling them that you are really trying to work up the confidence to get on your feet, but when she says those things to you about not finishing school, etc, that it makes you feel like you never will and you lose all motivation?

I wouldn't really worry about her motivation for behaving this way. I have an INTJ daughter who is a high achiever and I would not tolerate her habitually speaking to her siblings the way your sister speaks to you. I wouldn't tolerate it from any of my children, especially not at a family gathering. She has issues. You can't fix it, you can only try to stay out of her way and hope she gets it worked out.

You just work on doing what you need to do in order to make a life for yourself and write her off (for now) as someone who has a lot of insecurities.

 

[RDF]

Makes me angry to even think about it, and that's why I probably can't figure this on my own.

Let's see...

Two words: Personal boundaries. Learn about them and use them.

For starters, try the following post in Jennifer's blog; pay attention to the part about setting up "bottom lines":

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/156475-post2376.html

If you need more, there are self-help books on the subject at your local bookstore. You can also go to family counseling and get a counselor to show your entire family where to set up healthy boundaries.

One caution though. Make sure you're not crashing other people's boundaries before you establish and defend your own.

For example, if you're a grown adult living rent-free with your parents, then your parents and your sister may feel perfectly justified in invading your space and making you feel increasingly uncomfortable. They may think that you're taking advantage of your parents and need to move out or at least pay rent.

So remember that boundaries go both ways. First investigate whether you're intruding on other people's boundaries, then establish and defend healthy boundaries of your own.

 

[cafe]

Two words: Personal boundaries. Learn about them and use them.

For starters, try the following post in Jennifer's blog; pay attention to the part about setting up "bottom lines":

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/156475-post2376.html

If you need more, there are self-help books on the subject at your local bookstore. You can also go to family counseling and get a counselor to show your entire family where to set up healthy boundaries.

One caution though. Make sure you're not crashing other people's boundaries before you establish and defend your own.

For example, if you're a grown adult living rent-free with your parents, then your parents and your sister may feel perfectly justified in invading your space and making you feel increasingly uncomfortable. They may think that you're taking advantage of your parents and need to move out or at least pay rent.

So remember that boundaries go both ways. First investigate whether you're intruding on other people's boundaries, then establish and defend healthy boundaries of your own.

Heh. True. I think if I wanted my kid to pay rent or move out, I would make their life uncomfortable with concrete things, not nasty words. I'd start with not providing them with internet access and eventually I'd probably provide them with a ride to the local mission or recruiter. Nasty words without firm action are a waste of breath.

 

[RDF]

Heh. True. I think if I wanted my kid to pay rent or move out, I would make their life uncomfortable with concrete things, not nasty words. I'd start with not providing them with internet access and eventually I'd probably provide them with a ride to the local mission or recruiter. Nasty words without firm action are a waste of breath.

I was wondering if the parents are getting fed up but are too nice to say anything about it, so the sister is acting as the enforcer with the parents' blessing. Or maybe the parents are fine with the living arrangements, but the sister feels the situation is getting unhealthy and is taking action unilaterally.

In any case, it's something to investigate. Find out where everyone stands, and clarify whether it's creating a problem for any of the various parties. If everyone is fine with the living arrangements, then they can proceed from there and consider one-on-one issues.

 

[proteanmix]

I was wondering if the parents are getting fed up but are too nice to say anything about it, so the sister is acting as the enforcer with the parents' blessing. Or maybe the parents are fine with the living arrangements, but the sister feels the situation is getting unhealthy and is taking action unilaterally.

In any case, it's something to investigate. Find out where everyone stands, and clarify whether it's creating a problem for any of the various parties. If everyone is fine with the living arrangements, then they can proceed from there and consider one-on-one issues.

I've had a couple of friends have this done to them by their family members. Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home, no desire to get a job and not trying, just living off their parents. These people are in their late 20s and don't really seem to be motivated to move out. The parents don't want to throw their kids out of the house, but they're not happy with the adult child's lack of initiative and motivation so as you and cafe say, they make the living situation so unpleasant for the child that they leave. One person I know of is 28 and their mother is still doing their laundry for them. I don't know of any good way to solve this problem. I moved back home to save money and prepare for grad school, but I work and buy my parents groceries to defray some of the costs of living at home. Even if I offered to give my parents some form of rent money they wouldn't take it and I try not to be a burden on them.

So I wonder if this is similar to Rainfall's situation. Some people abhor direct confrontation and WILL NOT actively say anything to the kid or voice what they're feeling. This creates a pressure cauldron and people just snap at each other and battle lines are drawn. Maybe the sister is acting with the parents blessing, which is why I also wonder if the relationship between him and his sister/parents has always been like this.

As a sidebar, I don't understand why people are surprised by this behavior from an INTJ (or any NT type or T type for that matter). Type does not account for all of personality. I feel like people say that, but when I read evaluations of problems given completely in light of MBTI type I wonder. I'm friends with a somewhat clingy INTJ who always needed (and still does) confirmation of the status of our friendship and I was glad to give it because I thought that was reaffirming our relationship until it got a bit controlling and I had to tell him about himself. He still does it, but not as much as he used to do and I'm better able to tell him when he does it and he stops. It's not the end of our friendship, but I've noticed this behavior with another INTJ friend of mine as well. No, it doesn't take the stereotypical form that maybe an EFJ type would express, but it's the same underlying mechanisms at work.

 

[cafe]

FWIW, my INTJ daughter is capable of behavior that is close to what rainfall is describing. She gripes about her spoiled younger siblings already and would probably be worse if she thought it would fly. She works hard and follows the rules and she expects everyone else to do the same and to carry their weight. If they do not, she holds them in contempt to some degree. It's not that she hates them or she's evil, she just has high expectations for herself and for others.

Edit: And when I turned 18 my mother told me I had to get a job or go to college. I got a job. Then she told me to pay rent and how much I was to pay, so I paid rent. It was less than I would have paid elsewhere so I stayed until I was twenty-one and went away to school.

 

[Wandering]

I wonder why this thread isn't pages long with lots of helpful advice. Could it be because the perp is a beloved IN?

That's not really nice

Personally, I haven't said anything because I'm at a loss what to say, for several reasons:
* The bully and the bullied are both NTs, and I'm not very versed in NT dynamics.
* We get only one side of the story: no explanation whatsoever as to *why* the sister is doing what she's doing.
* Way too many unknowns. People have touched on some of them:
- What is the parents' usual communication style?
- What are the parents' wishes in this situation?
- How long has this bullying been going on?
- Was the pregnancy planned and what is the sister's home life in general?
And so forth and so on.

IOW: I personally didn't say anything because I was at a loss what to say. I needed more information, so I figured I'd let other people talk and I'd listen and see if I could pick up useful bits of data here and there.

I can make approximative shots, but I hate shooting in the dark altogether.

 

[matmos]

An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.

 

[proteanmix]

An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.

I wasn't trying to imply that rainfall is at fault only give a reason why his parents aren't responding. I know of circumstances in which the family responds in a similar manner to their kid and I said it. This may or may not be one of those situations, but they occur. No one called him a loser, or at least I didn't.

 

[cafe]

An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.

Well, the thing is, I do not know about any other cultures and I don't even know if rainfall and his family are the same culture as me, but white American families don't seem to do so well with extra adults in a household.

If it is a roomies situation it works better, but adult children or other relatives living at home, etc goes against the ideal of being self-sufficient, which is highly valued. Everybody ends up feeling put upon and it can result in a lot of drama. Nasty Jerry Springer-type drama.

 

[zarc]

elfinchilde, I don't think that's a fair comment to make. Rainfall comes in seeking help for dealing with his INTJ sister and yet somehow it's primarily the ESTJ husband's fault? He barely mentioned the husband.

From what I understood, she didn't assert any type of fault with the ESTJ husband at all. She was providing a view on the ESTJ from her own experience as he mentioned his experience dealing with his ESTJ BIL. He may not have been mentioned that much about his BIL but it's very clear how much the guy bothers him, to the point he tries to avoid him instead of dealing with their issues (though, it's up to him or both of them if they so much as want to deal with it). However, it might be helpful for Rainfall to also gain insight as to why he might not like his BIL or why they don't mesh well or at least take it into account if he chooses to and would like to in future commence a better relationship with him (assuming the BIL becomes less domineering or w/e it is that frustrates Rainfall and vice versa). She was probably pointing out as well that as she and Rainfall are INTPs, they may have some problems with ESTJs-- likely those who aren't balanced individuals. And it goes both ways as well, if the INTP is not a balanced individual. Same for any person of any Type who isn't well balanced or trying to become so. The rest of elfie's post was clearly focused on Rainfall and with how he might approach his INTJ sister as well. She gave him very good advice, where there was much more written compared to the one sentence about ESTJs that you jumped on. The rest of the post was also specifcally catered to his type as well as his sister's, as it's implied (well, I'd say evident from the Thread Title) that it's the INTJ female perspective he's trying to comprehend and in relation to him.

Elfie, correct me if I'm wrong.

I wonder why this thread isn't pages long with lots of helpful advice. Could it be because the perp is a beloved IN?

I don't think that's fair to say either =/. I realise from what I've read of your threads (and one you pointed out to me from whatever's coming out thread which I read through) that you are sensitive when it comes to Sensers being stereotyped or put down. Firstly calling his sister a perp and then as a beloved IN perp, I find, is rather rude. His sister may be an ass but she likely has her own issues that she's dealing with and she isn't able to behave in a manner or exert herself (Te! Te!) well towards her brother because of it/them. As for the IN remark, I think it does you a disservice for when you try to battle stereoTypes as it inadvertently futhers them with such a remark (even though you may have been a pit peeved when you said it due to feeling sensitive about S's?)

As for helpful advice, have no fear Rainfall! I've been meaning to jump in the moment I read your Thread's Title! I've got a wee'youngin' INTJ sister meself.

Sometimes problems are beyond the scope of MBTI and advice needs to move beyond this system.

It's true, sometimes problems are beyond MTBI. I think people have the ability of coping or learning from others and about themselves without it. However, I think that it's an added bonus when trying to understand how we know what we know and why etc It can be a useful tool in deciphering people's motivations or behavior based on their Type as well as one's own. The problem, I find, with most people is the stereotyping and the view that people are *boxed* into Type or that people can't evolve or become well balanced.

Edit: Completely aside, this Edit is for a Spider who keeps trying to bite me and needed to see me a bit webbed. :rolli:

:hi:

 

[Wandering]

It's true, sometimes problems are beyond MTBI. I think people have the ability of coping or learning from others and about themselves without it. However, I think that it's an added bonus when trying to understand how we know what we know and why etc It can be a useful tool in deciphering people's motivations or behavior based on their Type as well as one's own.

Edit: Completely aside, this Edit is for a Spider who keeps trying to bite me and needed to see me a bit webbed. :rolli:

A spider :horor: ? Where, WHERE?? *Wandering looks anxiously all around her, checking for any spider that might be creeping up on her... *

 

[matmos]

I appreciate the fact the many families can have strange (to outsiders) often complex ways of interacting. With respect, though, you are missing the point. Whether Rainfall lives in a shotgun shack or a middle class suburb is largely irrelevant. His issue is with his sister's behaviour towards him. He does not like being the butt of her ire or being belittled. It maybe his sister has issues with him! Maybe. But as we don't know, there's no point in guessing.

In the UK there is a code of conduct that prison officers must treat all prisoners with *respect* - however heinous the crime. If a murderer is deemed good enough to show respect to then maybe so is Rainfall. Even for the (alleged - but as yet unsubstanciated) crime of loafing around! I know the US penal system is not so forgiving...

If - if - there are issues with "overcrowding" at Rainfall's gaff, I would suggest a reasonable way of dealing with it is to talk Not construct some elaborate scenario to get rid of someone because you feel guilty about asking them to leave.