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Thread: INTJ sister.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Heh. True. I think if I wanted my kid to pay rent or move out, I would make their life uncomfortable with concrete things, not nasty words. I'd start with not providing them with internet access and eventually I'd probably provide them with a ride to the local mission or recruiter. Nasty words without firm action are a waste of breath.
    I was wondering if the parents are getting fed up but are too nice to say anything about it, so the sister is acting as the enforcer with the parents' blessing. Or maybe the parents are fine with the living arrangements, but the sister feels the situation is getting unhealthy and is taking action unilaterally.

    In any case, it's something to investigate. Find out where everyone stands, and clarify whether it's creating a problem for any of the various parties. If everyone is fine with the living arrangements, then they can proceed from there and consider one-on-one issues.

  2. #12
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I was wondering if the parents are getting fed up but are too nice to say anything about it, so the sister is acting as the enforcer with the parents' blessing. Or maybe the parents are fine with the living arrangements, but the sister feels the situation is getting unhealthy and is taking action unilaterally.

    In any case, it's something to investigate. Find out where everyone stands, and clarify whether it's creating a problem for any of the various parties. If everyone is fine with the living arrangements, then they can proceed from there and consider one-on-one issues.
    I've had a couple of friends have this done to them by their family members. Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home, no desire to get a job and not trying, just living off their parents. These people are in their late 20s and don't really seem to be motivated to move out. The parents don't want to throw their kids out of the house, but they're not happy with the adult child's lack of initiative and motivation so as you and cafe say, they make the living situation so unpleasant for the child that they leave. One person I know of is 28 and their mother is still doing their laundry for them. I don't know of any good way to solve this problem. I moved back home to save money and prepare for grad school, but I work and buy my parents groceries to defray some of the costs of living at home. Even if I offered to give my parents some form of rent money they wouldn't take it and I try not to be a burden on them.

    So I wonder if this is similar to Rainfall's situation. Some people abhor direct confrontation and WILL NOT actively say anything to the kid or voice what they're feeling. This creates a pressure cauldron and people just snap at each other and battle lines are drawn. Maybe the sister is acting with the parents blessing, which is why I also wonder if the relationship between him and his sister/parents has always been like this.

    As a sidebar, I don't understand why people are surprised by this behavior from an INTJ (or any NT type or T type for that matter). Type does not account for all of personality. I feel like people say that, but when I read evaluations of problems given completely in light of MBTI type I wonder. I'm friends with a somewhat clingy INTJ who always needed (and still does) confirmation of the status of our friendship and I was glad to give it because I thought that was reaffirming our relationship until it got a bit controlling and I had to tell him about himself. He still does it, but not as much as he used to do and I'm better able to tell him when he does it and he stops. It's not the end of our friendship, but I've noticed this behavior with another INTJ friend of mine as well. No, it doesn't take the stereotypical form that maybe an EFJ type would express, but it's the same underlying mechanisms at work.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    FWIW, my INTJ daughter is capable of behavior that is close to what rainfall is describing. She gripes about her spoiled younger siblings already and would probably be worse if she thought it would fly. She works hard and follows the rules and she expects everyone else to do the same and to carry their weight. If they do not, she holds them in contempt to some degree. It's not that she hates them or she's evil, she just has high expectations for herself and for others.

    Edit: And when I turned 18 my mother told me I had to get a job or go to college. I got a job. Then she told me to pay rent and how much I was to pay, so I paid rent. It was less than I would have paid elsewhere so I stayed until I was twenty-one and went away to school.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I wonder why this thread isn't pages long with lots of helpful advice. Could it be because the perp is a beloved IN?
    That's not really nice

    Personally, I haven't said anything because I'm at a loss what to say, for several reasons:
    * The bully and the bullied are both NTs, and I'm not very versed in NT dynamics.
    * We get only one side of the story: no explanation whatsoever as to *why* the sister is doing what she's doing.
    * Way too many unknowns. People have touched on some of them:
    - What is the parents' usual communication style?
    - What are the parents' wishes in this situation?
    - How long has this bullying been going on?
    - Was the pregnancy planned and what is the sister's home life in general?
    And so forth and so on.

    IOW: I personally didn't say anything because I was at a loss what to say. I needed more information, so I figured I'd let other people talk and I'd listen and see if I could pick up useful bits of data here and there.

    I can make approximative shots, but I hate shooting in the dark altogether.

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    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

    Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

    Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

    Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.

  6. #16
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

    Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

    Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

    Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.
    I wasn't trying to imply that rainfall is at fault only give a reason why his parents aren't responding. I know of circumstances in which the family responds in a similar manner to their kid and I said it. This may or may not be one of those situations, but they occur. No one called him a loser, or at least I didn't.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    An assumption seems to be developing hear that Rainfall is in someway at fault ["Not to say this is Rainfall's case, but they're lazing about at home..."]. Why say it if it's not the case?

    Shall we allow Rainfall to allude to any extenuating circumstance before writing him off as a schizotypal loser?

    Some behaviour is intolerable whatever the cause or however much the victim *deserves* it. Personally, I cannot think of one reason that indemnifies a bully.

    Wandering is of course correct, nothing worse than shooting in the dark. The issues may be complex but abusive bahaviour is inexcusable - irrespective of the complexities.
    Well, the thing is, I do not know about any other cultures and I don't even know if rainfall and his family are the same culture as me, but white American families don't seem to do so well with extra adults in a household.

    If it is a roomies situation it works better, but adult children or other relatives living at home, etc goes against the ideal of being self-sufficient, which is highly valued. Everybody ends up feeling put upon and it can result in a lot of drama. Nasty Jerry Springer-type drama.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    elfinchilde, I don't think that's a fair comment to make. Rainfall comes in seeking help for dealing with his INTJ sister and yet somehow it's primarily the ESTJ husband's fault? He barely mentioned the husband.
    From what I understood, she didn't assert any type of fault with the ESTJ husband at all. She was providing a view on the ESTJ from her own experience as he mentioned his experience dealing with his ESTJ BIL. He may not have been mentioned that much about his BIL but it's very clear how much the guy bothers him, to the point he tries to avoid him instead of dealing with their issues (though, it's up to him or both of them if they so much as want to deal with it). However, it might be helpful for Rainfall to also gain insight as to why he might not like his BIL or why they don't mesh well or at least take it into account if he chooses to and would like to in future commence a better relationship with him (assuming the BIL becomes less domineering or w/e it is that frustrates Rainfall and vice versa). She was probably pointing out as well that as she and Rainfall are INTPs, they may have some problems with ESTJs-- likely those who aren't balanced individuals. And it goes both ways as well, if the INTP is not a balanced individual. Same for any person of any Type who isn't well balanced or trying to become so. The rest of elfie's post was clearly focused on Rainfall and with how he might approach his INTJ sister as well. She gave him very good advice, where there was much more written compared to the one sentence about ESTJs that you jumped on. The rest of the post was also specifcally catered to his type as well as his sister's, as it's implied (well, I'd say evident from the Thread Title) that it's the INTJ female perspective he's trying to comprehend and in relation to him.

    Elfie, correct me if I'm wrong.

    I wonder why this thread isn't pages long with lots of helpful advice. Could it be because the perp is a beloved IN?
    I don't think that's fair to say either =/. I realise from what I've read of your threads (and one you pointed out to me from whatever's coming out thread which I read through) that you are sensitive when it comes to Sensers being stereotyped or put down. Firstly calling his sister a perp and then as a beloved IN perp, I find, is rather rude. His sister may be an ass but she likely has her own issues that she's dealing with and she isn't able to behave in a manner or exert herself (Te! Te!) well towards her brother because of it/them. As for the IN remark, I think it does you a disservice for when you try to battle stereoTypes as it inadvertently futhers them with such a remark (even though you may have been a pit peeved when you said it due to feeling sensitive about S's?)

    As for helpful advice, have no fear Rainfall! I've been meaning to jump in the moment I read your Thread's Title! I've got a wee'youngin' INTJ sister meself.

    Sometimes problems are beyond the scope of MBTI and advice needs to move beyond this system.
    It's true, sometimes problems are beyond MTBI. I think people have the ability of coping or learning from others and about themselves without it. However, I think that it's an added bonus when trying to understand how we know what we know and why etc It can be a useful tool in deciphering people's motivations or behavior based on their Type as well as one's own. The problem, I find, with most people is the stereotyping and the view that people are *boxed* into Type or that people can't evolve or become well balanced.

    Edit: Completely aside, this Edit is for a Spider who keeps trying to bite me and needed to see me a bit webbed. :rolli:


  9. #19
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    It's true, sometimes problems are beyond MTBI. I think people have the ability of coping or learning from others and about themselves without it. However, I think that it's an added bonus when trying to understand how we know what we know and why etc It can be a useful tool in deciphering people's motivations or behavior based on their Type as well as one's own.


    Edit: Completely aside, this Edit is for a Spider who keeps trying to bite me and needed to see me a bit webbed. :rolli:
    A spider :horor: ? Where, WHERE?? *Wandering looks anxiously all around her, checking for any spider that might be creeping up on her... *

  10. #20
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    I appreciate the fact the many families can have strange (to outsiders) often complex ways of interacting. With respect, though, you are missing the point. Whether Rainfall lives in a shotgun shack or a middle class suburb is largely irrelevant. His issue is with his sister's behaviour towards him. He does not like being the butt of her ire or being belittled. It maybe his sister has issues with him! Maybe. But as we don't know, there's no point in guessing.

    In the UK there is a code of conduct that prison officers must treat all prisoners with *respect* - however heinous the crime. If a murderer is deemed good enough to show respect to then maybe so is Rainfall. Even for the (alleged - but as yet unsubstanciated) crime of loafing around! I know the US penal system is not so forgiving...

    If - if - there are issues with "overcrowding" at Rainfall's gaff, I would suggest a reasonable way of dealing with it is to talk Not construct some elaborate scenario to get rid of someone because you feel guilty about asking them to leave.

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